Elon Muskrat watch

[redrumloa]

A thread to track one of the biggest snake oil salesmen and robber baron's to ever walk the planet.

Tesla Burns Through $739 Million on Road to Record $717.5 Million Quarterly Loss

The company laid off nine percent of its workforce in the second quarter as it attempted to become profitable. Tesla has never posted an annual profit and has only had two profitable quarters since going public in 2010.

I'll never understand why some people of certain political leanings continue to praise a person that robs taxpayers blind to make himself a billionaire.

 

[Robert]

I'll never understand...

'course you won't...

 

[redrumloa]

'course you won't...

You're a fan of robber barons?

 

[Robert]

You're a fan of robber barons?

I'm not a fan of the man himself - quite frankly, I think he's a bit of an arsehole - but it's rather amusing seeing you go after him when everybody knows that if he was a vocal Trump supporter you'd love him.

 

[ilwrath]

A thread to track one of the biggest snake oil salesmen and robber baron's to ever walk the planet.
[…]
I'll never understand why some people of certain political leanings continue to praise a person that robs taxpayers blind to make himself a billionaire.

Snake oil salesman? Signs are pointing to no. Jury might still be out, a bit. But both Tesla and SpaceX have actually produced useful products and advanced research in their fields. The books might be another matter entirely. But the actual results are good. Will he somehow turn it all legitimate, or will it leave a crater we haven't seen since the Enron days? Who knows...

Robber baron? I really don't see this one. People pretty voluntarily give him money. If you ignore SpaceX, he's taken very little tax money. And if you count SpaceX, you could argue he is delivering much more for much less tax money than Boeing and the other established players.​

Is he high on cocaine? Quite probably. An egomaniac with a high-stakes gambling problem? Almost certainly.

He's entertainment, at least. And has a reality distortion field Steve Jobs could only dream of. But, somehow, makes it all work better than anyone really knows how. It is a fascinating watch.

 

[Robert]

Snake oil salesman? Signs are pointing to no. Jury might still be out, a bit. But both Tesla and SpaceX have actually produced useful products and advanced research in their fields. The books might be another matter entirely. But the actual results are good. Will he somehow turn it all legitimate, or will it leave a crater we haven't seen since the Enron days? Who knows...

Robber baron? I really don't see this one. People pretty voluntarily give him money. If you ignore SpaceX, he's taken very little tax money. And if you count SpaceX, you could argue he is delivering much more for much less tax money than Boeing and the other established players.​

Is he high on cocaine? Quite probably. An egomaniac with a high-stakes gambling problem? Almost certainly.

He's entertainment, at least. And has a reality distortion field Steve Jobs could only dream of. But, somehow, makes it all work better than anyone really knows how. It is a fascinating watch.

Stop bringing logic and reason into this!

 

[redrumloa]

Robber baron? I really don't see this one. People pretty voluntarily give him money. If you ignore SpaceX, he's taken very little tax money.

Very little money?!? It seems you haven't been paying attention. The only reason Tesla is around whatsoever today is because of taxpayer subsidies.

For every Tesla car sold (up to No. 200,000), federal taxpayers kick in $7,500 to lower the costs. State taxpayers in a multitude of states pony up still more. In Colorado, they contribute another $5,000 to the electric car kitty, in California, it's $2,500.

When the Los Angeles Times crunched the numbers two years ago, it found that Tesla buyers had received more than $284 million in federal tax incentives and more than $38 million in California rebates. And that was before Tesla's banner 2016 year.

The taxpayer help only starts there. Tesla also collects hundreds of millions from competing automakers by selling environmental credits in California and more than half a dozen other states to car companies that can't meet the states' "zero emissions" sales mandates.

Plus, Nevada ponied up $1.3 billion in incentives to convince Tesla to build its huge battery factory near Reno.

And this doesn't include the fact that electric car owners don't pay into the Highway Trust Fund — which is funded by the per-gallon tax on gasoline and pays for road construction and upkeep.

Whether Tesla can survive without all this taxpayer largesse isn't altogether clear.

No person in their right mind would buy one of their overpriced boutique pseudo-green cars without the subsidy. In a way I do like those overpriced boutique pseudo-green cars for the technology, not the false greenness, but they are still overpriced boutique pseudo-green cars.

Snake oil salesman? Signs are pointing to no. Jury might still be out, a bit.

You at least say the jury is out a bit opposed to Robert's "LOL Elon is teh reals sucka!! LOL". Tesla has been around 15 years and has never earned a dime. To me, the jury has deliberated and come back with a guilty verdict many years ago. If you continually back-fill a sinkhole, it is still a sinkhole. If you keep throwing taxpayer money into a financial black hole, it is still a financial black hole.

 

[Robert]

You at least say the jury is out a bit opposed to Robert's "LOL Elon is teh reals sucka!! LOL".

Welcome to another episode of Jim making stuff up.

Here's what I actually said about him:

quite frankly, I think he's a bit of an arsehole

Which you already knew but decided to lie - again - anyway.
And that's partly what I was laughing at; your seeming inexhaustible desire to misrepresent people if you think it makes your case a bit stronger. Yes, it's kind of pathetic but it's funny too.

 

[ilwrath]

Very little money?!? It seems you haven't been paying attention. The only reason Tesla is around whatsoever today is because of taxpayer subsidies.

I don't think any of your points are unique to Tesla or Musk.

For every Tesla car sold (up to No. 200,000), federal taxpayers kick in $7,500 to lower the costs. State taxpayers in a multitude of states pony up still more. In Colorado, they contribute another $5,000 to the electric car kitty, in California, it's $2,500.

Open to all automakers. GM gets 200,000. Nissan gets 200,000. Anyone else who wants to build fully electric cars, 200,000. Tesla is the only one who has managed to sell 200,000, yet.

When the Los Angeles Times crunched the numbers two years ago, it found that Tesla buyers had received more than $284 million in federal tax incentives and more than $38 million in California rebates. And that was before Tesla's banner 2016 year.

Again, still open to other manufacturers? Buy a Nissan Leaf? You qualify for just the same amount. Buy a Chevy Bolt? Yup, you too.

The taxpayer help only starts there. Tesla also collects hundreds of millions from competing automakers by selling environmental credits in California and more than half a dozen other states to car companies that can't meet the states' "zero emissions" sales mandates.

That's climbing pretty far out on a limb, there. Besides, even under Republican and Libertarian ideals, aren't the states supposed to be free to set their own environmental protections?

Plus, Nevada ponied up $1.3 billion in incentives to convince Tesla to build its huge battery factory near Reno.

Find me a state that doesn't pony up tax incentives to build a factory or open an office to everyone who has anything resembling a chance of pulling it off.

And this doesn't include the fact that electric car owners don't pay into the Highway Trust Fund — which is funded by the per-gallon tax on gasoline and pays for road construction and upkeep.

Again, all EVs.

Whether Tesla can survive without all this taxpayer largesse isn't altogether clear.

None of it is specific to Tesla. Now if you want to question whether Tesla can survive at all... Jury is definitely still out on that one.

No person in their right mind would buy one of their overpriced boutique pseudo-green cars without the subsidy. In a way I do like those overpriced boutique pseudo-green cars for the technology, not the false greenness, but they are still overpriced boutique pseudo-green cars.

Does a few thousand bucks on a sticker price really determine which car sells and which one doesn't? (Hint, it doesn't. You're talking about a 10% difference in price on a luxury item. If 10% price differences guided purchases, there are a whole lot of fashion brands that wouldn't be in business.)

You at least say the jury is out a bit opposed to Robert's "LOL Elon is teh reals sucka!! LOL". Tesla has been around 15 years and has never earned a dime. To me, the jury has deliberated and come back with a guilty verdict many years ago. If you continually back-fill a sinkhole, it is still a sinkhole. If you keep throwing taxpayer money into a financial black hole, it is still a financial black hole.

Well, I never said Tesla wasn't a money pit. What I said is it probably isn't correct to call it snakeoil, since it actually sells a pretty decent EV at a price that is pretty competitive in it's market. The Model S isn't against a Ford Taurus. It's against a BMW 5 or 7 series or Audi A8. Like you said, boutique luxobarge. And Model 3 isn't competing against a Ford Fusion, it's competing against a BMW 3 series. And, not entirely surprising, Ford determined it couldn't make a profit selling Fusions or Taurus, so they're not doing that, anymore after next year. That's a pretty powerful statement about where the non-premium car market is. (There isn't much of one, right now.)

 

[redrumloa]

Welcome to another episode of Jim making stuff up.

Here's what I actually said about him:

Which you already knew but decided to lie - again - anyway.
And that's partly what I was laughing at; your seeming inexhaustible desire to misrepresent people if you think it makes your case a bit stronger. Yes, it's kind of pathetic but it's funny too.

Your British is showing Robert.

par·a·phrase
ˈperəˌfrāz/
verb
gerund or present participle: paraphrasing

1. express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity.
   "you can either quote or paraphrase literary texts"
   synonyms: reword, rephrase, put/express in other words, rewrite, gloss
   "the reporter was not quoting directly but paraphrasing her remarks"

I think my paraphrasing is quite accurate how you'll often approach things these days, blowing off all facts or logic and replying something like this.

ilwrath and others are capable of having a dialogue on a subject, you seem less and less capable as time rolls on.

 

[Robert]

Your British is showing Robert.

Well, yes. I am, indeed, British. Congratulations for spotting that.

 

[redrumloa]

I don't think any of your points are unique to Tesla or Musk.

But they are.

Open to all automakers. GM gets 200,000. Nissan gets 200,000

Two profitable companies.

Again, still open to other manufacturers? Buy a Nissan Leaf? You qualify for just the same amount. Buy a Chevy Bolt? Yup, you too.

By profitable companies.

That's climbing pretty far out on a limb, there. Besides, even under Republican and Libertarian ideals, aren't the states supposed to be free to set their own environmental protections?

Kind of irrelevant to my point though and different conversation. States are welcome to do what they want as long as it isn't ultimately federal taxpayers bailing them out when they ultimately bankrupt (see California and Puerto Rico).

Find me a state that doesn't pony up tax incentives to build a factory or open an office to everyone who has anything resembling a chance of pulling it off.

Irrelevant to the fact that Muskrat himself is a conman and Tesla is a house of cards and its stock is a Ponzi Scheme.

Again, all EVs.

By profitable companies.

None of it is specific to Tesla. Now if you want to question whether Tesla can survive at all... Jury is definitely still out on that one.

It's only a matter of time before the plug is pulled, the stock price collapses and Muskrat walks away with his billions.

Does a few thousand bucks on a sticker price really determine which car sells and which one doesn't? (Hint, it doesn't. You're talking about a 10% difference in price on a luxury item. If 10% price differences guided purchases, there are a whole lot of fashion brands that wouldn't be in business.)

It isn't 10% though when it is all added up, a much larger percentage is subsidized when accounting for everything.The whole carbon credit kickback system is the most ridiculous scheme I have ever seen. Profitable companies forced to turn over a huge amount of their profits to a scam that is actually less green then themselves. Tesla's products are most certainly not zero footprint, it has a displaced footprint far worse than cars with internal combustion engines.

That's a pretty powerful statement about where the non-premium car market is.

That's what happens with companies that actually need to be profitable to survive, they ax products that are not profitable. Then you have fake green companies like Tesla that survive on the fact they will never have a profitable product because of a false green narrative that to this point has a steady stream of taxpayer and shareholder money getting poured into the financial black hole.

 

[redrumloa]

On the subject of Tesla's stock, it is in a bubble that dwarfs anything seen in the dotcom bubble.

(2017 article)

Tesla passes General Motors to become the most valuable US automaker

Tesla's market capitalization is now bigger than General Motors', making it the largest U.S. based automaker by that metric.

Investors are clearly betting on Tesla's potential, and are undeterred by factors such as Tesla's loss of $773 million in 2016, and the fact that it sells only a tiny fraction of the cars delivered annually by established competitors.

General Motors sold about 10 million cars in 2016 compared with Tesla's roughly 76,000.

Tesla has only had two profitable quarters in its history as a public company, while GM earned a profit of more than $9 billion last year.

 

[redrumloa]

Air Force is looking into Elon Musk's pot smoking: Source

• The U.S. Air Force has begun looking into Elon Musk apparently smoking weed on a podcast, a source at the military branch tells CNBC.
• Musk's SpaceX provides services for the Air Force, with multiple high-value contracts.

Late Thursday, Musk smoked marijuana and sipped whiskey during an appearance on Joe Rogan's podcast — fueling concerns about his recreational drug use. He discussed a wide range of topics including his tweeting behavior, his Boring Co.'s flamethrowers, and "neuralink" devices that could connect brains to computers.

The weed could be the smoking gun showing Musk violated his company's policy. One could argue Musk was representing Tesla as its CEO during the interview. By imbibing alcohol and marijuana, he was "under the influence" while at work.

Some states like California, where Rogan's podcast is recorded, have legalized the plant for recreational use. However, marijuana is still illegal according to U.S. federal law.

 

[metalman]

 

[redrumloa]

It seems I didn't reply to this the first time around.

I'm not a fan of the man himself - quite frankly, I think he's a bit of an arsehole - but it's rather amusing seeing you go after him when everybody knows that if he was a vocal Trump supporter you'd love him.

Elon Muskrat only started with anti-Trump statements in recent months. I've been vocal about him being a fraud for a few years now, even here on Whyzzat.

I've never really been a fan, but in investing you never let personal feelings influence your decisions. I wouldn't invest in Tesla stock for the simple reason it is essentially a Ponzi Scheme and the company does nothing but bleed money, with no real chance of ever being profitable.

Heck, the day I started this post Tesla stock was trading at $350/share. Today it closed at $263.24. It has lost 25% value since I made this thread last month. Once again I am proven right.

 

[Robert]

Once again I am proven right.

Of course you are.
All hail omniscient Jim.

 

[redrumloa]

Of course you are.
All hail omniscient Jim.

 

[Robert]

Tesla reports its first annual profit​

Tesla made a $721 million profit thanks to $1.58 billion in regulatory credits.​

Tesla made a profit of $270 million in the fourth quarter of 2020, bringing the year's profits to $721 million. It's Tesla's first annual profit. The company posted a $826 million loss in 2019.

 

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Seeing this title screen, I'd ask people here on Whyzzat to refrain from name calling and use more civilised language, like "Elon Musk is a conman", or, more preferably: "I have serious doubts regarding the integrity of Elon Musk". The upside of the latter is that it makes people open-minded regarding this. You may actually convince people who otherwise would even skip reading your posts entirely