Liberal Meltdown :banana:

[the_leander]

Dislikes:

- Health care, Obama wants socialized medicine

You think that's bad? Good grief, I'm glad I don't live in your world.

My parents grew up in a Scotland where you had to pay for medical attention. The best thing a British government ever did was socialise medicine. Yes, we still pay for it - comes straight off your wages before you get them. You won't hear many (sane) people in Scotland requesting it be switched back. Most people will bitch about their national insurance payments but if you asked them would they rather risk paying for their care should they fall ill, most would say no. More importantly, it means those less well off receive proper medical attention when they need it, without worrying about being turfed onto the street for having no money.

Our system isn't perfect, not by any means.

But it's far preferable to your system.

The National Health Service has become less efficient despite Labour pumping millions into its budget.

And you'll not hear a single person say different from this country, except possibly middle management whose positions were built on this injection.

I would also point out that the NHS isn't the only public service that has been effected by bloat. Not by a long shot.

he National Health Service's bill for cancer drugs could swallow half of the present health budget.

Patients cannot rely on the NHS to save their lives if the cost of doing so is too great

The UK's National Health Service does not have infinite resources. Someone will have to decide whether buying drugs to keep an 80 year old "alive" for six more months or spending on a unemployed 40 year old alcoholic, or a 50 year old obese smoker, is a waste of resources. So when a person is ill and in need of treatment, their age, weight, and unhealthly lifestyle choices will determine what treatments they receive, if any.

And this is different to private health insurance, how? Are you telling me that once you hit your 80's a person's health insurance is not going to be considerably higher then it would be for that person were they in their 20's? Or that smokers have to pay more then non smokers? Pull the other one!

Your point about infinate resources is cute, but it's no different then under a purely private system, the only difference is that fewer people under the private system have any medical cover at all. Which is why the US has a birth mortality rate of a third world country, and cuba has a rate closer to European standards.

As to medicines not being available on the NHS, yes, this is so, but in this country, there is also the option of going private. Which leads us back to the point of individuals resources vs an unbrella cover by the state. There is no such thing as unlimited resource outside of a video game.

 

[ltstanfo]

The Canadian Government spends about $2000 per person per year. That's pretty much the same as the US government spends. Then the US citizens pay an additional $2000 per person per year leaving about 20% of people uncovered and leaving those who are covered to discover that whatever it is they eventually get, they don't have the correct insurance for.

That is to say, you system costs twice as much per capita as ours and provides less coverage. But, hey, if that's what you prefer...

Fluffy,

I might have missed something in your statement above but let me caveot (sp?) one part of your response to Red...

IF you don't have a MAJOR insurance provider's coverage then you may find that you don't have the correct insurance when you need it. There are lots of insurance companies selling medical policies to the public but what they actually cover varies greatly. In my personal experience I have found that choosing anything other than the primary provider in a state leads to coverage issues. Your mileage may vary.

Regards,
Ltstanfo

 

[Glaucus]

And this is different to private health insurance, how?

Actually, there is one important difference: Money. If you got tons of cash, you always get treatment. And even though most Americans don't have the train loads of cash required for serious medical care, they "cling" to this idea that one day money can buy them happiness and health. It's much like those who dream up huge plans of high-rise condos, yachts and island resorts all with the prerequisite of winning the lottery this coming weekend. Or maybe the next. The one after for sure!

- Mike

 

[faethor]

And even though most Americans don't have the train loads of cash required for serious medical care, they "cling" to this idea that one day money can buy them happiness and health. It's much like those who dream up huge plans of high-rise condos, yachts and island resorts all with the prerequisite of winning the lottery this coming weekend. Or maybe the next. The one after for sure!

The American dream is sold as a type of meritocracy where hard work will get you anything you want -- President or CEO of IBM for example. The myth that exists is one of the self made man. Unfortuantely truth is much less stellar then the American Dream. There are countries where their citizens enjoy more mobility than what we experience. One has to wonder if the 'dream' itself holds us back and instead we should be focused on reality now and how to best achieve the dream for a wider swath of society.

 

[redrumloa]

The American dream is sold as a type of meritocracy where hard work will get you anything you want -- President or CEO of IBM for example. The myth that exists is one of the self made man. Unfortuantely truth is much less stellar then the American Dream. There are countries where their citizens enjoy more mobility than what we experience. One has to wonder if the 'dream' itself holds us back and instead we should be focused on reality now and how to best achieve the dream for a wider swath of society.

100% pure, unadulterated bullshit. The American Dream is alive and well for non-lazy people. All people need to do is put down the weed and the beer, get a damn job and work hard. I am living proof of this. I'm not rich and still have the occasional difficult time. I struggled for many years and it was tough, but I survived and I am happy to be where I am now. Very happy. I have no compassion for people who do not try to better themselves, but instead complain "it can't be done" while they toke away on a bong.

Oh, what's that?
So now you say life sucks
Well, ninety-nine percent of it's
What you make of it...
So if your life sucks, you suck

Suicidal Tendencies Lyrics
"Gotta Kill Captain Stupid"

 

[faethor]

100% pure, unadulterated bullshit. The American Dream is alive and well for non-lazy people.

Reread what I wrote -- we have a society whose people are less mobile, meanging they are born into 1 economic state they are more likely to be there then some other societies.

But sure I agree. We have the highest unemployment in 5 years. Likely what happened is people were used to lots of job openings, easy increase in wages, low healthcare prices, and profitable business state of the Clinton era. Those who didn't want to work as hard when the ecomony is in the crapper must be let go.

Though in my personal experience of a recent corporate take over. They cut 1/2 the staff put the work on the other half. Many of who they kept were IMO less productive than some other that could have done their jobs. Clearly this cut was not based on individual merit.

 

[cecilia]

when did Obama claim to be against solar/wind/tides/natural gas/and other renewable energy sources which America needs to be developing

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

The American Dream is alive and well for non-lazy people. All people need to do is put down the weed and the beer, get a damn job and work hard. I am living proof of this. I'm not rich and still have the occasional difficult time. I struggled for many years and it was tough, but I survived and I am happy to be where I am now. Very happy.

Yay. The American dream of "not being destitute" and you're living it. Congratulations.

I have no compassion for people who do not try to better themselves, but instead complain "it can't be done" while they toke away on a bong.

Lot's of rich kids toke on the Bong and then do very well, thank you. Of course, it matters who your daddy is. Being white helps. Yeah, there is an American Dream but ... it's a dream.

You talk about lazy people not making it and I'm reminded of a scene I've seen more than once and maybe you have too of a couple of fat white guys in Mexico or some other holiday destination sitting on deck chairs being waited on hand and foot saying "You know, the reason these guys are so poor is because they're lazy". Ha ha, it is to laugh.

And you can still say that the system isn't about keeping the rich rich and the poor poor when you see very well who is getting bailed out with whose money. You can watch what's going on and still not think that the system isn't owned by crooks who are just looking out for themselves at your expense.

 

[redrumloa]

Yay. The American dream of "not being destitute" and you're living it. Congratulations.

I own some very nice things nowadays, it took me many years of hard work to get here. I kept my eyes on the prize through some brutal times. I am comfortable, but I am still working on bettering myself. I don't need to be filthy rich but I am not jealous of the filthy rich.

Lot's of rich kids toke on the Bong and then do very well, thank you. Of course, it matters who your daddy is. Being white helps. Yeah, there is an American Dream but ... it's a dream.

Bullshit, lazy rich kids are just that, lazy white rich kids. Anyone can better themsleves in this country.

You talk about lazy people not making it and I'm reminded of a scene I've seen more than once and maybe you have too of a couple of fat white guys in Mexico or some other holiday destination sitting on deck chairs being waited on hand and foot saying "You know, the reason these guys are so poor is because they're lazy". Ha ha, it is to laugh.

What does this observation have to do with the price of milk? Mexico is not the United States, and ignorance is ignorance.

And you can still say that the system isn't about keeping the rich rich and the poor poor when you see very well who is getting bailed out with whose money. You can watch what's going on and still not think that the system isn't owned by crooks who are just looking out for themselves at your expense.

You should know by now I am well aware of problems in "the system" and I am rabid against any sort of bailout. None of this excuses laziness or piss poor financial management. Here's a hint, I have $200 in credit card debt. That is not a typo, two hundred dollars. People who get themselves up to their eyeballs in debt trying to keep up with the Jones' don;t get much sympathy from me either.

 

[faethor]

You should know by now I am well aware of problems in "the system" and I am rabid against any sort of bailout. None of this excuses laziness or piss poor financial management. Here's a hint, I have $200 in credit card debt. That is not a typo, two hundred dollars. People who get themselves up to their eyeballs in debt trying to keep up with the Jones' don;t get much sympathy from me either.

Interesting. Seems your home economics are more Democratic style -- tax (collect earnings) and spend for the needs, minimize the borrowing. Yet your professed political party is oppostie of your style.Republicans have suceeded at borrow and spend doubling the debt well over all of our eye balls.

This appears to be not that uncommon a position. Seems many Republicans I know of have a more irrational fear over abortion then over fiscal responsibility. Even though you can not have an abortion they're not forced on you. However, fiscally unresponsible and failures to run the governement is forced on us and we all get to bail them out.


Aren't you glad we are living now? Can you imagine living here 80 years ago when 25-30% of the population were too lazy to work.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Judging by crimes that people have been charged with or convicted of is not a good indicator. There are people who have been executed that have been innocent. There have been criminals found not guilty even though they are. Bush and his administration are rife with crime but just because they have managed to stonewall and block any investigation does not mean that they are innocent, just very good at obstruction of justice.

While I get the drift of what you are trying to say I'm not sure I can so easily agree with your "black and white" assessment, particularly when it comes to politicians.

's funny you should say that's "black and white" when I thought it was quite obvious I was painting shades of gray.

Palin is a good fit for politics in general and the GOP in particular. Just because she's VPILF doesn't mean you can trust her. She likes having things her way and she has the confidence that what she wants is what God wants and He'll back her all the way.

Wow...that was a loaded statement. Show me a politician who doesn't want things their way.

Naturally they all do to some extent but good public servants want things their way for the good of the public and others want it their way for the good of their cronies and friends and family and screw everyone else - and there are those in both walks that will try to achieve it within the law or by flouting the law. Those out for personal gain flouting the law are commonly called crooks and criminals except when they get themselves into positions with the power to stymie any investigations. I guess we can still call them crooks but then we get their supporters coming up and saying "oh yeah? can you point to anything they've ever been convicted of?"