Suddenly vaccine skepticism has gone mainstream.

[redrumloa]

Do you know anyone excited to get the new Covid-19 vaccine? With exactly one exception, not a simple person I know of ANY political/social/ethic persuasion who is getting the covid vaccine. Stories like this being suppressed doesn't help confidence:

Four trial volunteers who got Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine developed Bell's palsy - but FDA denies that the temporary facial paralysis was caused by the shot​

Four people who got Pfizer's coronavirus vaccine in the firm's trial developed Bell's palsy, a form of temporary facial paralysis, according to U.S. regulators' report on the shot.

Food and Drug Administration (FDA) regulators said there wasn't any clear way that the vaccine caused Bell's palsy, but warned that doctors should watch for the alarming side effect and Pfizer should continue to keep tab on how many people it strikes.

That one friend? Nice person, but a public school teacher and teacher's union member. Never questions authority, always believes what NPR/CNN says uncritically.

 

[redrumloa]

Local news report that needs watched. UMC's response should be pretty jarring to those on the fence.

YT link

BTW - insert media (video) option gone?

 

[Robert]

When vaccines are developed as quickly as this it's impossible to test to the usual standards so there's always going to be more risk. That isn't skepticism, it's just an unfortunate constraint. For example, you can't know the effects a year down the line if you don't have a year to test and there's nothing off-the-wall about acknowledging that - it has always been "mainstream".
I'd be astonished if more unpleasant side effects don't manifest in at least one of the new vaccines as time passes.

Meanwhile, some popular Qanons think Trump claiming a vaccine is safe is part of some greater plan:

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

When vaccines are developed as quickly as this it's impossible to test to the usual standards so there's always going to be more risk. That isn't skepticism, it's just an unfortunate constraint.

I've always hated the vaccines are "100% safe and effective" statements - because nothing is 100% safe and effective. There's always a risk, even in injecting saline. Even if the vaccine technology is safe there is always the problem of small effects being amplified by injecting it in everyone and the quality control involved in producing that much product and distributing it. It only takes one bad batch to tip the cost benefit scale into the negative.
We know who are the people with the highest risk of dying from infection and who are the people at high risk of catching the infection etc. so it makes sense to start the vaccination (and implicit beta testing) where the risk from not vaccinating is high.

 

[ilwrath]

Well, my wife is a group 1, phase 2 (non-clinical medical with patient exposure) essential worker, and she is planning on getting the vaccine in the next couple weeks when it is offered to her. I'm a group 2 (non-medical, essential job role in essential industry [critical manufacturing for mining, transportation, and energy]) and I'm planning on getting it when it's available to me. It's really a no-brainer. Especially with how many groups of people I am routinely exposed to. There are easily 200+ people I am on a first name weekly visit basis with for my job. (I support technology in 5 different manufacturing plants.)

So, yeah, I'm pretty excited to get the vaccine. Of course, nothing in life is 100% safe. There is absolutely no doubt it's safer than COVID, though. That's not even a question.

You're talking about a side effect by 4 in over 100,000 (1 in 25,000) vs a disease that has already infected about 5% of my state (1 in 20 -- [or you're 1250x more likely to be infected]), and even with current treatment options is still fatal to almost 1% of people who catch it. (currently would be around 1 in 2000 -- [or you're 12.5x more likely to die] across the entire population of Michigan) and leaves 10% (1 in 200 [or you're 125x more likely]) with lasting problems a lot worse than some temporary facial feeling loss. (Long term lung damage, mental impacts, etc.)

The information to make these calculations for your own region are widely available. I encourage everyone to do it. It's pretty eye opening. Personally, I think the CDC numbers are pretty close to being right. (I'm sure they're a few percent over, but if you work out the math on expected death rates for various age and health groups vs what has happened this year, it turns out that the CDC numbers are at the top end of possible.) But for the "DoNt bEliEvE ThE NuMBerS!" people..... Go ahead and plug in the numbers that sound right to you. Even if you say 50% of the CDC numbers are horseshit (which is nearing flat-earth levels of denialism and foolishness), it is STILL over an order of magnitude safer to get the vaccine than not.

And as for long-term health impacts from this particular vaccine... You're right. We haven't had time to measure them, yet. But it appears to be on par with the long-term health impacts of non-ionizing radiation. (quackery territory -- I'm not fearing 5G even though it hasn't been out a year, either.)

As Fluffy said, even saline injection isn't 100% safe. One of the 4 people who developed Bells was actually in the control group. (She had no vaccine at all, just an empty saline injection.) "Maybe there is a bad batch" could be applied to anything you do, too. But quality control for medical production is pretty damn strict. It's exceedingly unlikely for a bad batch to leave the plant, and if it somehow manages that, it's heavily tracked to be stopped way quicker than retail goods are.

People are really poor at intuitively identifying rational vs irrational fears. But a slight bit of critical thinking and some math skills can easily tell you who is bullshitting.

 

[redrumloa]

When virtue signaling on social media becomes more important than the life of your own child...

Watch the dates.

 

[Robert]

When virtue signaling on social media becomes more important than the life of your own child...

Is there anything to indicate that the vaccine caused the miscarriage?

 

[redrumloa]

Is there anything to indicate that the vaccine caused the miscarriage?

She goes on social media showing herself get vaccinated with pictures from a recent sonogram. ~6 days later the baby is dead. She gives zero indication it is a high risk pregnancy (If it were high risk and she took the vaccine anyhow, she's no better than Casey Anthony). The vaccine (I forget which maker) is known to damage the placenta in women. No way this is some random coincidence.

 

[Robert]

The vaccine (I forget which maker) is known to damage the placenta in women.

I didn't know that. Do you have a link?

No way this is some random coincidence.

Maybe, although I'd wait before coming to that conclusion.

 

[redrumloa]

I didn't know that. Do you have a link?

Finding the original study seems impossible now on a quick search. I wonder if it has been memory-holed. Here's a NYT article with a doctor struggling with the fact she says it is largely unknown what would happen to a pregnant woman.

I’m a Pregnant Doctor. Should I Get the Covid Vaccine?​

The two vaccines that have now been approved use a novel messenger RNA technology that has not been studied in pregnancy. It’s possible the mRNA and the bubble it travels in, made of lipid nanoparticles, could cross the placenta, according to Dr. Michal Elovitz, a preterm labor researcher and obstetrician at the University of Pennsylvania. This might, in theory, cause inflammation in utero that could be harmful to the developing fetal brain.

 

[Robert]

Finding the original study seems impossible now on a quick search. I wonder if it has been memory-holed.

Well, even if you could find a link to a study with results that indicated this, one study does not equate to "is known to," so let's not overstate things. It is of course possible that there could be some effect but this is 2+2=5 stuff.

 

[redrumloa]

Well, even if you could find a link to a study with results that indicated this, one study does not equate to "is known to," so let's not overstate things.

I don't think I overstated things here. I have actually tried my hardest to be balanced during the pandemic. The approved vaccines did not undergo a traditional trial and approval process with the FDA. They were rushed through bypassing most normal requirements. Anyone opting to get vaccinated here are actually enrolling themselves in a clinical trial of the vaccine, while literally waiving their rights to sue the drug companies or government should they or a loved one be harmed or killed as a result. This is all verifiable fact.

Someone who is a doctor has to know these facts to be even minimally competent. If I see people look at the data and decide to try the vaccination such as ilwrath has done here, I don't complain. He's an adult with a matured immune system and can make an informed decision for himself. I see this doctor bragging about vaccinating her unborn child for social media virtue signaling points, not so much. A week old newborn would not be eligible for normal drug trials, so why should a 1st or early second trimester unborn baby be subject to it at their most vulnerable state?

 

[Speelgoedmannetje]

She goes on social media showing herself get vaccinated with pictures from a recent sonogram. ~6 days later the baby is dead. She gives zero indication it is a high risk pregnancy (If it were high risk and she took the vaccine anyhow, she's no better than Casey Anthony). The vaccine (I forget which maker) is known to damage the placenta in women. No way this is some random coincidence.

Well it could be (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence) but having to have statistical evidence whether or not it's lethal to unborn babies is not particularly desireable methinks.

Btw. it's sad to see these serious concerns being pushed away by qanon flatearth hooha claiming chips to be implanted in our body.

 

[Robert]

I don't think I overstated things here.

You claimed a vaccine caused a miscarriage, despite there being zero evidence of it. If that isn't overstating things then I have no idea what is.

Aside from that you also said, "The vaccine is known to damage the placenta in women," but couldn't back it up with any evidence. Referring to that as "overstating" is being kind. A less kind way to describe it would be "flat out lie".

 

[redrumloa]

A less kind way to describe it would be "flat out lie".

So you are going to slip into asshole mode, so be it.

LINK

Several vaccine candidates are expected to induce the formation of humoral antibodies against spike proteins of SARS-CoV-2. Syncytin-1 (see Gallaher, B., “Response to nCoV2019 Against Backdrop of Endogenous Retroviruses” - http://virological.org/t/response-to-ncov2019- against-backdrop-of-endogenous-retroviruses/396), which is derived from human endogenous retroviruses (HERV) and is responsible for the development of a placenta in mammals and humans and is therefore an essential prerequisite for a successful pregnancy, is also found in homologous form in the spike proteins of SARS viruses. There is no indication whether antibodies against spike proteins of SARS viruses would also act like anti-Syncytin-1 antibodies. However, if this were to be the case this would then also prevent the formation of a placenta which would result in vaccinated women essentially becoming infertile.

 

[redrumloa]

BTW I forgot to ask Robert, how did your vaccination go? Any side effects?

 

[Robert]

BTW I forgot to ask Robert, how did your vaccination go? Any side effects?

I haven't had a vaccination for C19.
All previous vaccinations were in childhood and had no major side effects.

 

[Robert]

So you are going to slip into asshole mode, so be it.

LINK

Several vaccine candidates are expected to induce the formation of humoral antibodies against spike proteins of SARS-CoV-2. Syncytin-1 (see Gallaher, B., “Response to nCoV2019 Against Backdrop of Endogenous Retroviruses” - http://virological.org/t/response-to-ncov2019- against-backdrop-of-endogenous-retroviruses/396), which is derived from human endogenous retroviruses (HERV) and is responsible for the development of a placenta in mammals and humans and is therefore an essential prerequisite for a successful pregnancy, is also found in homologous form in the spike proteins of SARS viruses. There is no indication whether antibodies against spike proteins of SARS viruses would also act like anti-Syncytin-1 antibodies. However, if this were to be the case this would then also prevent the formation of a placenta which would result in vaccinated women essentially becoming infertile.

To claim that what you quoted above amounts to "known to damage the placenta in women" is disingenuous to the point of being a flat out lie. If pointing this out makes me an "asshole," I can live with that.

 

[cecilia]

a lot of guys probably don't know this, but miscarriages are not that uncommon.
they have been happening for as long as there have been wombs.
Women have them before and even after they do other things, including getting a vaccine.

I have a niece who is pregnant and because she is working at home and not seeing strangers she has decided to get vaccinated after she has the baby. It's her choice and I'm fine with that.

As I recall the studies that were done on the mRNA vaccines last year didn't include pregnant women and that is the main reason they didn't advise those people to get vaccinated, not because there's actual evidence it's "dangerous". Just because there's no data.
No data doesn't mean "bad". It means no data.

 

[ilwrath]

BTW I forgot to ask Robert, how did your vaccination go? Any side effects?

If you want an anecdote, my wife received her 2nd Pfizer C19 vaccine shot last week. First shot left her arm a bit sore for the next day. 2nd one left her overall a bit sore, and with a slight fever (~100.2 F) for the next day. No other side effects. By way of comparison, COVID 19, itself, left my aunt dead.

Unfortunately, the vaccine is still not available for my group.