Woman chooses 11th Trimester Abortion

[faethor]

Your observations have been interesting, a different set of criteria would be needed before the bible was even compiled, this era is refereed to as "primitive Christianity"

Good to know what your criteria are. Also you can see where other's criteria are different. The inclusion of a '3yr lectionary' is something I'd argue must be excluded. That item came about from the Second Vatican in 1969. Surely those people that worshiped Christ from 30AD-1968AD were Christians too.

Matthew's Gospel has "Sermon on the Mount" Luke's Gospel has "Sermon on the Plain" of Jesus teaching the same lesson in two different places and recorded by two different people. But you knew that already ...

I don't know if 'recorded' gives the correct impression. It's thought the Gospels were not written by the people whose names their bear. And it's highly unlikely the people who wrote the Gospels were there for a firsthand account. It's very likely they're derivitive of Mark used by some different sects of Christians. So they recorded the 'telephone game' going on in thier sects.

If you look at the DNC plank it had no exemption either, it was considered "implied"

As the DNC has nothing about eliminating abortion but the RNC does that item isn't needed in the DNC. Simply the DNC isn't planning to change abortion law to skirt Roe V Wade, that's the RNC.

A big problem here is its too hard to adopt, and then the birth mother could always change her mind ... , an adoption is never final here

Certainly the USA will allow lawsuits for any reason. However, many states have a period of waiting and series of steps the parents of the kids to be adopted must follow. This makes infant adoptions less likely, the kid ages during this time of course. However, it doesn't mean the birth parents show up and get to take the kid whenever they want. In Minnesota after the final document is signed by the birth parents they have 10 days to change their mind. The only time a court would be allowed to reverse this is if the birth parents can prove they were frauded into giving up their kid. Many States are closer to a month.

 

[metalman]

Good to know what your criteria are. Also you can see where other's criteria are different. The inclusion of a '3yr lectionary' is something I'd argue must be excluded. That item came about from the Second Vatican in 1969. Surely those people that worshiped Christ from 30AD-1968AD were Christians too.

Clearly by agreeing to a common lectionary would mean that they now consider each others denominations as "true christians"

Don't know if you've heard about this:
Catholic Church Unveils New Home for Ex-Episcopalians

Maryland Episcopal Parish Will Be First In U.S. To Join Roman Catholic Church

Anglicans can join the Roman Catholic church en masse while preserving certain traditions, such as having married priests. Until the announcement, individual Anglicans and Episcopalians had to switch individually.

 

[faethor]

Common lectionar doesn't reset or free Christians from the harm they did before 1969. Again many of the examples I cited were mainstream Catholism and Prostantism Prioir to 1969 era.

If you want actions after 1970 Followers of mainstream Christianity still aren't turning that other cheek. We can look at Northern Ireland, Uganda, Rwanda. And here at home the conservative KKK members often attend and want to enforce mainstream Protestism. Where do you put Christian Evengelicals and their desire to implement Dominion Theory?

 

[metalman]

Atheists also believe that punishment is required but that it should be carried out as a corrective and that positive methods to change behaviour also have value. Atheists also don't think that the guilty should get their forgiveness from God but from the victims and should have to make good with the victims.

If someone killed your family, would it be OK with you to find out that God had forgiven him?

 

[metalman]

If you want actions after 1970 Followers of mainstream Christianity still aren't turning that other cheek. We can look at Northern Ireland, Uganda, Rwanda. And here at home the conservative KKK members often attend and want to enforce mainstream Protestism. Where do you put Christian Evengelicals and their desire to implement Dominion Theory?

the KKK the military wing of the Democratic Party who are anti-Republican and anti Catholic. Your confusing Political groups with Political aims who's members happen to be members of a religious group.

A better example for you to site would be the Cristero War (1926-29) an attempted counter-revolution against the anti-Catholicism of Atheist President Plutarco Elías Calles adminstration.

Dominion Theory?? I never heard of it until your link. I think the authors are paranoid and off their meds! There are no Evangelicals trying to implement Mosaic law as written n the Pentateuch LOL
see Paul for guidance
if you can find some Christians living like Orthodox Jews let me know.

 

[faethor]

the KKK the military wing of the Democratic Party who are anti-Republican and anti Catholic.

You need to reset your clock it's no longer 1970. Subsequent to the DNC's approval of equal rights for blacks and equal rights for women the KKK switched to the Republicans. Yes they are still mainstream Protestants who are against Catholicism. Why? They see Catholicism as too liberal. This was encouraged as Nixon pursued the Southern Strategy to get racist Dems to switch away from the party and join the Republicans. It worked and have supported right-wingers ever since. David Duke was??? Republican.

Your confusing Political groups with Political aims who's members happen to be members of a religious group.

Fact is the religious and political goals on BOTH sides of the fence are tied to Christians since 100AD.

Dominion Theory?? I never heard of it until your link. I think the authors are paranoid and off their meds! There are no Evangelicals trying to implement Mosaic law as written n the Pentateuch LOL

Dominion Theory is underway. In 2012 we have right-wingers weaking education laws so they can teach Biblical Creationism on the same footing as Evolution. In 2012 we have right-winters weaking abortion law to better comply with their formation of God's ideals. In 2012 we have churches arguing their 'right of religion' is violated in Obamacare. It is of course, their right, to have the bosses' religion trump the employee's religion, is removed in Obamacare, as it should be. Also, don't forget the attempts to claim the Deist Founders were good Christians, while denying the USA's roots taken from the period of Enlightenment.

The Christian Apologetics created a $30Million museum for Creationism. Not sure if you consider them Christian or not. Apologetic roots are from Catholicism (the branch CS Lewis formed), involves Lutherans, Evengelicals, and Presbyterian. Fairly mainstream roots with noteable visits and $$ from those mainstream followers.

And if want something Pentatuch related - Chik-fil-a Christians were not only anti-homosexual. They gave $ to agencies that promoted the killing of gays.

if you can find some Christians living like Orthodox Jews let me know.

Right wing Orthodoxy of Muslims, Judism, and Christianity are very similar in nature. In fact the 3 faiths didn't talk to each other in Israel for a millenial. Then those horrid gays (sarcasm) had a parade and the 3 faiths joined together to exercise the Pentatuch in their hatred of the gays.

 

[metalman]

You need to reset your clock it's no longer 1970. Subsequent to the DNC's approval of equal rights for blacks and equal rights for women the KKK switched to the Republicans. Yes they are still mainstream Protestants who are against Catholicism. Why? They see Catholicism as too liberal. This was encouraged as Nixon pursued the Southern Strategy to get racist Dems to switch away from the party and join the Republicans. It worked and have supported right-wingers ever since. David Duke was??? Republican.

You're forgetting a little history. The South has undergone a political realignment, starting with Ronald Reagan’s election. Louisiana was then a heavily Democratic state, most primaries didn't even have republican candidates. By running as a Republican Duke could guarantee he would be in the general election and generate lots of publicity. Now that the Republican Party fields a full slate of candidates in Louisiana, Duke is back to running his candidates in the Democratic primaries. And the Louisiana Democratic party was notoriously corrupt, remember Edwin Edwards? He was who Duke ran against for governor

Dominion Theory

is underway. In 2012 we have right-wingers weaking education laws so they can teach Biblical Creationism on the same footing as Evolution. In 2012 we have right-winters weaking abortion law to better comply with their formation of God's ideals. In 2012 we have churches arguing their 'right of religion' is violated in Obamacare. It is of course, their right, to have the bosses' religion trump the employee's religion, is removed in Obamacare, as it should be

eHow: How to make a tinfoil hat

The Christian Apologetics created a $30Million museum for Creationism. Not sure if you consider them Christian or not. Apologetic roots are from Catholicism (the branch CS Lewis formed), involves Lutherans, Evengelicals, and Presbyterian. Fairly mainstream roots with noteable visits and $$ from those mainstream followers.

You've lumped together too many people who have written on many differing themes.

Creationism, and interpreting the book of Genesis literally are only by denominations formed after the Protestant Reformation. Philosophical writing all the way back to the 1st century AD take Genesis to be allegory
St Augustine of Hippo wrote that the Biblical text should not be interpreted literally if it contradicts what we know from science and our God-given reason. In his book "The Literal Interpretation of Genesis" .pdf St Augustine argued that Genesis was an allegory.

And if want something Pentatuch related - Chik-fil-a Christians were not only anti-homosexual. They gave $ to agencies that promoted the killing of gays.

I have no idea what they are funding and you gave no link
Now it could be they are funding a genetic test for a homosexual gene, then the homosexual fetus could be aborted

Right wing Orthodoxy of Muslims, Judism, and Christianity are very similar in nature. In fact the 3 faiths didn't talk to each other in Israel for a millenial. Then those horrid gays (sarcasm) had a parade and the 3 faiths joined in their hatred of the gays.

The Quran is interpreted as the "Literal word of god by" Muslims
Islam treats homosexuality as a crime rather than a sin

Young people who identify themselves as so-called Emos are being brutally killed at an alarming rate in Iraq, where militias have distributed hit lists of victims and security forces say they are unable to stop crimes against the subculture that is widely perceived in Iraq as being gay.

 

[faethor]

You're forgetting a little history. The South has undergone a political realignment, starting with Ronald Reagan’s election. Louisiana was then a heavily Democratic state, most primaries didn't even have republican candidates. By running as a Republican Duke could guarantee he would be in the general election and generate lots of publicity. Now that the Republican Party fields a full slate of candidates in Louisiana, Duke is back to running his candidates in the Democratic primaries. And the Louisiana Democratic party was notoriously corrupt, remember Edwin Edwards? He was who Duke ran against for governor

Yes certain areas of the nation only 1 party seems to have control. There are RINOs and DINOs. Did you know that David Duke said publically back in 2010 that he was considering a Republican run at the White House? (Not all that convincing that he's a Dem)

eHow: How to make a tinfoil hat

You said you hadn't heard of Dominion Theory. It's real and in work in US Politics. That's why I provided you examples of it in action. It's also why some people support the Israel Government as they have to rebuild the Temple to ensure the 'End Times'. Christian Nationalism / Fascism is real and is alive and kicking in the Republican Party.

You've lumped together too many people who have written on many differing themes.

I can't help it that the Creation Museum takes on many different Christians. But, it does and it's pushed not in the way you argue that St. Augustine wanted Genesis to be seen as an Allegory.

I have no idea what they are funding and you gave no link

Chik-fil-a donations support FRC who support killing gays in Uganda You can use Google for more info.

The Quran is interpreted as the "Literal word of god by" Muslims
Young people who identify themselves as so-called Emos are being brutally killed at an alarming rate in Iraq, where militias have distributed hit lists of victims and security forces say they are unable to stop crimes against the subculture that is widely perceived in Iraq as being gay.

Troubling deaths for no good reason except to appeal to Sky Daddy. Not unlike Christians who killed Abortion Drs. Christians who killed gays in USA. I'm sure you remember Matthew Shepard. I'm no fan of Muslim hate. But, just because some Christians hate slighly less than some Muslims is not a good reason to focus that Christian hate does happen. Sure they may get taught the Sermon on the Mount, but there is a very vocal minority of Christians that don't follow the Sermon nor are they seeking to.

 

[Glaucus]

The Unitarians don't see Jesus as divine, nor do they believe in the trinity - but they do believe they are Christian.

Ya, I'd say they're kinda borderline. Don't know enough to really say, but Christ being the son of god seems like a core part of Christianity I'd say.

 

[metalman]

Christians who killed gays in USA. I'm sure you remember Matthew Shepard. I'm no fan of Muslim hate. But, just because some Christians hate slighly less than some Muslims is not a good reason to focus that Christian hate does happen. Sure they may get taught the Sermon on the Mount, but there is a very vocal minority of Christians that don't follow the Sermon nor are they seeking to.

The Matthew Shepard killing was in 1998, the killers, Russell Henderson ( Morman/??, raised by his alcoholic mother) and Aaron McKinney ( atheist/agnostic/??, meth addict, drug dealer, bisexual, raised by mother, mother died when he was 18) were prosecuted and imprisoned, Shepard had purchased drugs from McKinney before, they knew each other, so not exactly the hate crime its portrayed to be.

100's of emo murders (being beat to death using cinder blocks) occur monthly in Iraq, no one is ever prosecuted.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Ya, I'd say they're kinda borderline. Don't know enough to really say, but Christ being the son of god seems like a core part of Christianity I'd say.

Christians disagree. Some feel it is more important to believe that Jesus is God, some feel it more important to follow his example. "Followers of Christ" sounds to me more like the latter. The former would be more like "the sycophants of Christ".

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

eHow: How to make a tinfoil hat

Yelling "tinfoil" is not criticism. When something is patently happening it is not paranoid to say that it is happening.

St Augustine of Hippo wrote that the Biblical text should not be interpreted literally if it contradicts what we know from science and our God-given reason.

Which is really just more goal post moving of the "No True Scotsman" variety. The more we learn the more of the bible become allegory. It's pretty much the whole thing now as it even fails to get history correct.

I have no idea what they are funding and you gave no link
Now it could be they are funding a genetic test for a homosexual gene, then the homosexual fetus could be aborted

Nope. That would undermine the position that homosexuality is a choice.

The Quran is interpreted as the "Literal word of god by" Muslims

Pointing out a greater fool does not make one wise.

The Bible is held to be the literal word of God by a good number of Christians (though not "True Christians"(TM) as defined by metalman, no doubt).

 

[Glaucus]

Christians disagree. Some feel it is more important to believe that Jesus is God, some feel it more important to follow his example. "Followers of Christ" sounds to me more like the latter. The former would be more like "the sycophants of Christ".

"Some" might feel that way or the other. I guess the way I think of it is, if you were to ask every Christian on the planet if Jesus was the son of god, I'd expect over 99% to say yes.

Overall I think both you (Fluffy) and Metalman have made some good points here. I think trying to trace Christianity to it's roots has some value, but ultimately Christianity became the main religion that it is today during the Bynatine empire. That was when many of the different Christian off-shoots either died off or were killed off. After that, you can look at many of the off-shoots from the Eastern Orthodoxy and for the most part the beliefs are the same but differ mostly in institutional structures. For example, the Orthodox consider the pope's claim to speak to god (or for god) to be heresy, but aside from that the teachings between the two are quite similar and compatible. I think if you look at the biggest Christian camps you can easily pick out core values that have survived.

I tend to consider Mormons as Christian as well as they do share at least some core values. However, I certainly see them as different from what most consider "mainstream" Christianity.

Clearly the term "Christianity" is an umbrella term for a variety of religions. I guess my point is that if you make that umbrella too big it starts to lose it's meaning. Some self-proclaimed "Christian" groups deviate a lot from the mainstream at which point the term Christianity starts to become meaningless. For example, if we reduce the meaning of "Christian" as someone who believes there was once a dude named Christ, well, that's hardly useful and we might as well do away with the term entirely.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

100's of emo murders (being beat to death using cinder blocks) occur monthly in Iraq, no one is ever prosecuted.

Well, you see, they are free and Democratic now. They are so lucky that Bush came along.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Clearly the term "Christianity" is an umbrella term for a variety of religions. I guess my point is that if you make that umbrella too big it starts to lose it's meaning. Some self-proclaimed "Christian" groups deviate a lot from the mainstream at which point the term Christianity starts to become meaningless.

A fish is a chordate and a gecko is a chordate and giraffe is a chordate. The giraffe didn't stop being a chordate just because it is also a mammal. Christianity is a tree as life is - though messier because religions can hybridize more easily.

Metalman's assertion that there is a "True Christianity" is wishful thinking, there is no such thing because there is no way to know what is "true" though many people with different ideas of "true" can believe that they have received these truths by revelation but there is no objective way to decide between them.

Christianity is all those churches and faiths that have branched from Christianity. I don't think it's fair to decide whether a church is Christian or not based on popularity - big church: true Christianity; little church: not.

And if your criterion is "Is Jesus the son of God?" you are not asking whether Jesus is divine, nor are you asking whether Jesus IS God. "Son of God" is also an ambiguous term - Paul said in Galatians 3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Hence there are Christians who believe that Jesus is only the "son of God" in the same sense that we all are sons and daughters of God. Who is anyone to decide that those Christians are not Christian? That sort of thing is merely intersect snobbery.

 

[faethor]

The Matthew Shepard killing was in 1998, the killers, Russell Henderson ( Morman/??, raised by his alcoholic mother) and Aaron McKinney ( atheist/agnostic/??, meth addict, drug dealer, bisexual, raised by mother, mother died when he was 18) were prosecuted and imprisoned, Shepard had purchased drugs from McKinney before, they knew each other, so not exactly the hate crime its portrayed to be.

Morman is/isn't Christian depending on one's defintion. Aaron McKinney appeared to have attended Roman Catholic church. Cited the Bible as to why this was justified. And of course this was the first noteable picket by the Westboro Baptists. Which while they may not be Christian in your eyes many other Christians (not in the Westboro Church) publically supported their views.

100's of emo murders (being beat to death using cinder blocks) occur monthly in Iraq, no one is ever prosecuted.

Interesting and sad. Though I don't recall anyone here wanting orthodox anything to rule. And I don't believe anyone here said only Christians do bad things.

Though I do see your arguements as an attempt to try and push the idea that Christians have always and only do good. The result is quite sad. Instead of owning up and promoting the "Sermon on the Mount", (which would really be a great idea btw), fellow Christians are written off as not true Christians. This removes the responsibility you have to make your brothers better. Because you 'know' in the end God will just sort them out for you. When in fact no one 'knows' the will of a diety to that extent.

 

[metalman]

Yelling "tinfoil" is not criticism. When something is patently happening it is not paranoid to say that it is happening.

It's mild ridicule, its not happening, and other paranoids discussing their paranoia is not proof of it happening

It's just like the 2008 rumors that Bush would declare martial law and establish a theocracy rather then let Obama become President

Which is really just more goal post moving of the "No True Scotsman" variety. The more we learn the more of the bible become allegory. It's pretty much the whole thing now as it even fails to get history correct.

So your upset because the Bible is not interpreted as only literal?
the Bible is treated as the "word of God" as imperfectly transcribed by man, so the entire Bible could be considered an allegory

The Bible is held to be the literal word of God by a good number of Christians (though not "True Christians"(TM) as defined by metalman, no doubt).

according to Fluffy anyone can be "True Scotsman" even Little Green Martians

 

[metalman]

Well, you see, they are free and Democratic now. They are so lucky that Bush came along.

To make a cultural change required we remain
Japan made a cultural change, but we're still there

 

[metalman]

And of course this was the first noteable picket by the Westboro Baptists. Which while they may not be Christian in your eyes many other Christians (not in the Westboro Church) publically supported their views.

Westboro Church is a cult with 100 members approximately
Their "teaching" has nothing to do with "the sermon on the mount"
Fred Phelps did run for office several times in the Democratic Primary, so is he a "true democrat"?

Though I do see your arguements as an attempt to try and push the idea that Christians have always and only do good. The result is quite sad. Instead of owning up and promoting the "Sermon on the Mount", (which would really be a great idea btw), fellow Christians are written off as not true Christians. This removes the responsibility you have to make your brothers better. Because you 'know' in the end God will just sort them out for you. When in fact no one 'knows' the will of a diety to that extent.

Christians expect those who break the law to be punished by man, those who sin by God

 

[Glaucus]

Metalman's assertion that there is a "True Christianity" is wishful thinking, there is no such thing because there is no way to know what is "true" though many people with different ideas of "true" can believe that they have received these truths by revelation but there is no objective way to decide between them.

Obviously this is the real problem here. Since all are different flavors of the same myth, it's hard to say which one is the gold standard and which ones are all wrong. This is why when I look for a definition of "Christianity" I do look at what is most popular. It's what some would call a "de facto standard", standard simply by being dominant. And if you want to dismiss the dominant view you'll need some good reasoning to back it up.

Overall I think I'm kinda in between your view and Metalman's view. Metalman has an overly narrow view of Christianity whereas you seem to have a very broad one. I see it more as shades of grey (and no, that's not a reference to any popular books with a similar title ).

The problem of picking an appropriate label for a large number of differing values is not confined to religions. Political views are in many ways similar. There are extremists who consider themselves moderates. What one condiders themselves isn't really the final word on any given label. To determine if someone is extreme or not you really have no choice but to look at the big picture and see how one fits into it. And again, the answer isn't likely to be black and white either.