Americans hate Obamacare

[metalman]

Interesting stuff. And like the Bible it appears Islams pick and choose. The things you cited may be offensive but spend some time reading the book of laws aka Pentatuch. ReligionS are offensive....

Strawman
No Christian Church even has readings from those books during services

Revised Common Lectionary

Church readings are from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

 

[faethor]

Strawman
No Christian Church even has readings from those books during services

Revised Common Lectionary

Church readings are from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

A Church is not solely what happens on Sunday between 9am and Noon. The Church has a variety of functions throughout the week for various different types of Christians. And Christians cite non-gospel texts for their morals and convictions. Phelps Church is one newsworthy Christian group that uses more than the Gospel. And for a more close at home example so does Metalman as you cited Romans when asked for your moral views derived from the Gospel.

My personal experience is a church that taught us more than simply the Gospel and read, during church, from more books than just the Gospels. And if you want to here Pikeville Methodist Church Check out the Service Bulletins. 1/16/11 is a good example the lesson is from Jeremiah. Which isn't a Gospel. Feel free to look around. Just compare Jan 2010 vs 2011 vs 2012 and you'll see clearly more than the Gospel IS used.

Sorry Metalman, my personal experience, cited groups, and a particular example are strong evidence that your view that 'No Christian Church ever has readings from those books during services' is simply wrong. Perhaps yours does not but it's hardly the only Christian Church in your town, your state, your nation or the world. There are Christian churches that do not subscribe to the 'RCL' you cite.

 

[metalman]

His manifesto appears to talk about how Christian he is.

his manifesto talks about "christrian culture" he proclaimed himself a Darwinian Atheist

Both books are interepeted in similar ways.

how are literal vs allegory the same?

modern radical Christians you can look at the KKK

Armed wing of the Democratic party, anti-republican, anti-catholic, anti-black

Timothy McVeigh

Atheist

The Lord's Resistance Army.

not christian, some kind of cult

Metalman - your version of Christianity sounds less 'bad'. Though it's clearly NOT the only version of Christianity out there.

"Judgement" is required
The central point of a Christian churches teaching is the "sermon on the mount"
Both the Orthodox and Catholic churches, and some Protestant denominations interpret the Old Testament as history, allegory, and wisdom

 

[faethor]

how are literal vs allegory the same?

I neither said nor implied this. It's the case that both the Bible and the Koran are interepted in literal ways and inallegorical ways. Both Christianity and Islam have different sects. Some more liberal, allegorical based, and some more fundamentalist, literal based.

Armed wing of the Democratic party, anti-republican, anti-catholic, anti-black

Be that as it may all those groups cite Christianity as a driving principle.

And while I agree that LRA is cult like they are undoubtably citing and using faith in Christ to drive their cult. (Id assert that in reality the difference between a Cult and a Religion is ... Cult is driven by a person that knows the Cult is wrong. Religion is the continuation of that drive after the originator is dead. )

We can go into some other fairly horrid things Christians have done over the era. Lots of nice instruments of confession - Iron Maiden, Pear of Anguish, Breast Ripper. The buring of atheists and people preceived not of the Christian faith or not Christian enough.

Both the Orthodox and Catholic churches, and some Protestant denominations interpret the Old Testament as history, allegory, and wisdom

Sure I agree they tend to more liberally interepet the Bible. Though they are not the only Christian churches. And many of those other churches have a more literal translation. For another example of a literalist church the Young Earth group which uses a literal translation of Gensis to date the world as being 6K years old. (Though strangely they've been claiming this for about 50 years and never seem to change to 6050 years old.)

You seem to be playing on the precipise of falling into the 'no true scotsman' fallacy here. And I might ask who gets to determine Christianity? Jesus Christ of the Later Day Saints followers claim they are Christians. Other Pauline Sect Christians disregard that notion. Similarily Born Again Christians claim Catholics are not Christians.

In recent news we see Christians abusing girls. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-abuses-surface-legion-school (About time to throw in Catholic sexual abuse of minors here as a 'great' example of abusive Christians.)

 

[metalman]

A Church is not solely what happens on Sunday between 9am and Noon. The Church has a variety of functions throughout the week for various different types of Christians.

January 19th – 6:00 p.m. - Kick-Off Potluck Dinner
January 26th – Classes begin at 6:30 p.m.. There will be a dinner at 6:00 p.m. provided by the
Searchers Sunday School Class. (Donations will be accepted and will go towards the Capital Campaign.)

Classes:
“Sermon of the Mount” – by John Stott
Adult Class Led by Tim Bailey
What does it mean to seek first the kingdom of God in life? According to
John Stott, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount describes what human life and
human community look like when they come under the gracious rule of
God—different! Matthew 6:8 reads: "Do not be like them" (the people
around them).

“Promised Land”
Adult Class Led by Jerry Bishop
Discover how God guided his people to a specific place—the Promised
Land—to impact the world both in ancient times and today.

Women’s Prayer Group
Adult Class Led by Jane Amos and Patty May
A class about learning how to pray.

My personal experience is a church that taught us more than simply the Gospel and read, during church, from more books than just the Gospels.

Sorry Metalman, my personal experience, cited groups, and a particular example are strong evidence that your view that 'No Christian Church ever has readings from those books during services' is simply wrong. \.

you didn't read the link,
When services include a 3rd reading it is taken from the Old Testament
Old Testament Readings are much more selective both in terms of the books included:, many are omitted

Jeremiah 2:4-13 NIV
Hear the word of the LORD, you descendants of Jacob, all you clans of Israel. This is what the LORD says: “What
fault did your ancestors find in me, that they strayed so far from me? They followed worthless idols and became
worthless themselves. They did not ask, ‘Where is the LORD, who brought us up out of Egypt and led us through
the barren wilderness, through a land of deserts and ravines, a land of drought and utter darkness, a land where no
one travels and no one lives?’ I brought you into a fertile land to eat its fruit and rich produce. But you came and
defiled my land and made my inheritance detestable. The priests did not ask, ‘Where is the LORD?’ Those who deal
with the law did not know me; the leaders rebelled against me. The prophets prophesied by Baal, following
worthless idols. “Therefore I bring charges against you again,” declares the LORD. “And I will bring charges against
your children’s children. Cross over to the coasts of Cyprus and look, send to Kedar and observe closely; see if there
has ever been anything like this: Has a nation ever changed its gods? (Yet they are not gods at all.) But my people
have exchanged their glorious God for worthless idols. Be appalled at this, you heavens, and shudder with great
horror,” declares the LORD. “My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living
water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

The CCT membership includes the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops as well as many traditional "mainline" or "liturgically-based" American and Canadian Protestant denominations such as Lutheran, North American Anglican (Episcopalian), Presbyterian, and more loosely Methodist and/or Seventh Day Adventist

Fred Phelp's Westborough church is a cult, and he's teaching something other than the "sermon on the mount"

 

[metalman]

You seem to be playing on the precipise of falling into the 'no true scotsman' fallacy here. And I might ask who gets to determine Christianity? Jesus Christ of the Later Day Saints followers claim they are Christians. Other Pauline Sect Christians disregard that notion. Similarily Born Again Christians claim Catholics are not Christians.

If they're not using one of the Standard Translations of the Bible, and their central teaching is not the "sermon on the mount" they're not Christians, but some splinter sect or cult

Using the "Book of Morman" as central to their teachings would mean that they're not Christian, but a splinter group from Christianity

In recent news we see Christians abusing girls. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-abuses-surface-legion-school (About time to throw in Catholic sexual abuse of minors here as a 'great' example of abusive Christians.)

To mean something you would have to show that Catholic's thought this was morally allowed behavoir

"Allah Akbar"

 

[faethor]

@Metalman,
Seems we have very different church experiences. Yours is one that only Sunday counts. Mine was one of weekly Bible Studies that involved many books of both Old and New Testament. Not only did we learn about how they came about we learned how our faith interepeted (allegorical or literal) the works and how it applied to our Christian Lives. In addition, we see Christians citing Old Testament such as 'not laying down with another man' for their morals. Clearly these Christians were NOT only relying on the gospels for their morals. Neither interpetation or no morals are exactly the same for all Christian churches. Otherwise everyone would all be Catholic. And if you view the history of the church over time you'll see various denominations with different intepretations and differening morals at different times. Certainly Christians disagree on which morals and how those morals are backed by their faith.

www.faithinvoting.org is a new superpac for Christians who are pro-gay marriage, pro-environment, pro-public education, pro-science, pro-support of climate change science, pro-universal healthcare, pro-end of the war on drugs. Whereas http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project are Christians who are ripping anything that'd support that group out of the Bible. Two clearly different views of Christianity, both proclaiming divine accuracy.

Clearly Christianity do not follow a universal single morality. They don't now nor have they done so through the ages. Your claim that "So if there is a conflict between the Bible and science, that part of the Bible them must be interpreted as an allegory " is one that's really a choice by you of how your faith works. I wouldn't be too surprised a church across the road with a different view. Heck I'd even bet within your own pew you find someone with slightly different view. About half my life I was a Christian. I find there are likely as many types of Christianity as there are headcount of Christians.

 

[faethor]

If they're not using one of the Standard Translations of the Bible, and their central teaching is not the "sermon on the mount" they're not Christians, but some splinter sect or cult

No true scotsman right?

Using the "Book of Morman" as central to their teachings would mean that they're not Christian, but a splinter group from Christianity

By your definition yes. But, obviously not by the definition they are using.

To mean something you would have to show that Catholic's thought this was morally allowed behavoir

A more fair statement is that Christian morality is ever changing. In certain eras and certain ages Christians claim that what they are doing is morally acceptable behavior. The morals of Christianity are as relative as any other religion on our planet. Probably more in some cases.

Don't know if you're Catholic but there are some serious differences in morals and interpretation between the People of God and the Vactican. It seems you want to tell us the People of God are therefore not Christians.

Bringing this back to Healthcare. There are certainly Christians that believe the Gospels tell us that public Healthcare is a good that God would premit. They cite the free healthcare Jesus gave. They cite the many sections of Jesus asking us to take care of our brother and when in need of a shirt giving them a coat as well. And their certainly is a group of Christians who see the Bible says no such thing. .... So which one is the Christian Moral? And are the rest 'not true scotsmen' or in this case 'not true christians'?

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

The readings run in three-year cycles; ...

Your replies are a bit "Wolfram Alpha" some times. You'll run a whole bunch of factoids just to flesh out what I said in the first place when it seemed in the first place that you were taking a contrary position.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Strawman
No Christian Church even has readings from those books during services

So once again you are using the shifting definition ploy. Now it's that if a Christian Church reads from the Pentateuch then they aren't actually a Christian Church.
(That would be the "No True Scotsman" fallacy)

 

[metalman]

A more fair statement is that Christian morality is ever changing. In certain eras and certain ages Christians claim that what they are doing is morally acceptable behavior. The morals of Christianity are as relative as any other religion on our planet.

The Latin language version of the Catholic Catechism which is the official version, others are translated from dates to the Council of Trent in 1566 ,

Luther's Large Catechism (1529)

Calvin's Genevan catechism 1541

Westminster Confession of Faith (1647)

 

[metalman]

So once again you are using the shifting definition ploy. Now it's that if a Christian Church reads from the Pentateuch then they aren't actually a Christian Church.
(That would be the "No True Scotsman" fallacy)

Old Testament readings during services are very limited, and generally are the Wisdom and teaching verses, follow the earlier post links for the exact verses.

Many Churches print their teachings as a Catechisms a summary of principles, often in question-and-answer format

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

The central point of a Christian churches teaching is the "sermon on the mount"

Also selectively applied.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Id assert that in reality the difference between a Cult and a Religion is ... Cult is driven by a person that knows the Cult is wrong. Religion is the continuation of that drive after the originator is dead.

Nope. A religion is a cult with political power. After all, the Christians were called a cult before the Empire recognized its utility and adopted the religion and used it for its own purposes.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

"Allah Akbar"

The Jews used to publicly execute people for things like adultery back in the day. That's where the Muslims get it from. Of course, when Judaism evangelized the gentiles there were an awful lot of things the gentiles wouldn't go for so the new religion had to be adapted to the morals of the people being evangelized and so the New Testament is very different from the old and Christianity is very different from Judaism.

However, Christians used to publicly execute people too for things like - not agreeing with the church higher-ups, not believing the "correct" things, reading the Bible for yourself and other heinous crimes. William Tyndale was burned at the stake partly for the terrible crime of translating the Bible into English - a translation which went on to form the most part of the King James Bible - but I guess that those Christians that burned him weren't true Christians even though they had been the only type of Christians for 1200 years (because the people before about 350AD weren't true Christians either).

 

[metalman]

@Metalman,
Seems we have very different church experiences. Yours is one that only Sunday counts. Mine was one of weekly Bible Studies that involved many books of both Old and New Testament.

I never had any Bible studies classes, all lessons were taught from the catechism, the only readings from the Bible I ever heard where those read during church services.

Your claim that "So if there is a conflict between the Bible and science, that part of the Bible them must be interpreted as an allegory " is one that's really a choice by you of how your faith works. I wouldn't be too surprised a church across the road with a different view.

That's why they're across the road, they're good people, but slightly misguided
Happy to stop by for their next bake sale

 

[faethor]

I never had any Bible studies classes, all lessons were taught from the catechism, the only readings from the Bible I ever heard where those read during church services.

So while there's a difference here I wouldn't argue that one isn't a Christian and one is not a Christian. I read a few different Catechisms. They're kinda the Cliff Notes version of the faith. What appears to me is my church upbringing came with more education in the Canon Laws.

That's why they're across the road, they're good people, but slightly misguided
Happy to stop by for their next bake sale

And yet they too are still Christians.

Religion is a spectrum where some lean liberal (as in allegory) versus conversative (as in literal). In this sense Christianity is the same as other religions. Islam too has it's liberal and conservative practicioners. As does Judism ...

 

[metalman]

However, Christians used to publicly execute people too for things like - not agreeing with the church higher-ups, not believing the "correct" things, reading the Bible for yourself and other heinous crimes. William Tyndale was burned at the stake partly for the terrible crime of translating the Bible into English - a translation which went on to form the most part of the King James Bible - but I guess that those Christians that burned him weren't true Christians even though they had been the only type of Christians for 1200 years (because the people before about 350AD weren't true Christians either).

Tyndale was killed at the instigation of agents of Henry VIII and the Anglican Church., for opposing Henry VIII's divorce from Catherine of Aragon, in favour of Anne Boleyn, on the grounds that it contravened scriptural law. Tyndale was tried for heresy ( of the Anglican Church) and treason in a unfair trial, and convicted. Tyndale was then strangled and burnt at the stake in the prison yard, Oct. 6, 1536. His last words were, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes."

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Tyndale was killed at the instigation of agents of Henry VIII and the Anglican Church., for opposing Henry VIII's divorce from Catherine of Aragon, in favour of Anne Boleyn, on the grounds that it contravened scriptural law. Tyndale was tried for heresy ( of the Anglican Church) and treason in a unfair trial, and convicted. Tyndale was then strangled and burnt at the stake in the prison yard, Oct. 6, 1536. His last words were, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes."

You see. You "Wolfram Alpha"ed again. Your creator called you "metalman" because you are a bot, right?

 

[metalman]

I read a few different Catechisms. They're kinda the Cliff Notes version of the faith. What appears to me is my church upbringing came with more education in the Canon Laws.

Knowing the Cliff notes is the only requirement, helping out at the beer garden at the church picnic is optional

Religion is a spectrum where some lean liberal (as in allegory) versus conversative (as in literal). In this sense Christianity is the same as other religions. Islam too has it's liberal and conservative practicioners. As does Judism ...

except that its the oldest churches that interpret the Old Testament as allegory
Its Protestant Evangelicals who interpret the Old Testament literally

There is no moderate Islam unless the government is secular
The most secular Muslim nations are Turkey & Iraq
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

Don't see any other Muslim majority nations setting up a secular governmen, they're all trying to set up a Caliphate and impose Sharia law