I can't believe the news today...

It's right that we are saddened and horrified by the deaths of innocents, especially children but what really appalls me is that we aren't.
We can kill children in calculated mechanised ways and then look away and move on if we even notice it's been done and excuse it as necessary to protect the wealth and business interests of the powerful. We should have as much news coverage of the deaths of children when Israel bombs a family or when a US drone strike takes out women and children. We should have just as much news coverage of tearful parents and stunned townspeople because their horror and grief and suffering is just as valid but national policy is to destroy other people's societies.
Again, I'm not downplaying this event as unimportant or not as important as those other things, I'm saying those other massacres are as important as this one. When families are destroyed like this it matters not whether the killers were lone nuts or hired guns of an organisation or state or what justification the killers felt they had for the killing - except that when our governments kill other people's children we are partly culpable.
All of this money and time spent killing other people's children in the Middle East under the guise of a war on terror or in South America under the guise of a war on drugs hasn't made our children safe. In fact when governments continually use violence and terror as a matter of policy it inevitably legitimizes the use of violence. The problem isn't guns per se: the problem is thinking that shooting people with guns is a legitimate solution to your problems.
 
redrumloa said:
Keep in mind the USA is the only place in the world where states are not individual countries. The USA is a vast country with hundreds of millions of people. Terrible things happen to people all over the world, not just in the USA. We also have (somewhat) freedom of the press so you actually hear about such things.
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*cough*Australia*cough*
 
Ana-Marquez-Greene.jpg

"Ana Marquez Greene, age six, who was among the children killed in Newtown, CT, yesterday, was the daughter of jazz saxophonist (and Cross Cross recording artist) Jimmy Greene. He recorded a tune in her honor a few years ago, "Ana Grace." Jimmy Greene, a graduate of the Greater Hartford Academy of the Arts and the Hartt School, has played and/or recorded with Claudio Roditi, Horace Silver, Tom Harrell, and the Carnegie Hall Jazz Band (under the direction of Jon Faddis). He's made nine CD's of his own, and also teaches at Western Connecticut State University. My condolences to Jimmy Greene and his family."
 
Robert said:
Mike Huckabee explains why it happened:
We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?
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That comment is idiotic. First, his God is Omnipresence and therefore can never be removed from schools. Second, it's not like religious schools are exempt from School shootings. For example, Oikos University. If 'amount of God' is the cure there would be none there. Third, just a bit of reading history and he should plainly see how religion kills. Heck he can open his Bible and actually read it. Lastly, someone should ask Fuckabee where his God was when God's Priests were sexually molesting the kids.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
It's right that we are saddened and horrified by the deaths of innocents, especially children but what really appalls me is that we aren't.
We can kill children in calculated mechanised ways and then look away and move on if we even notice it's been done and excuse it as necessary to protect the wealth and business interests of the powerful. We should have as much news coverage of the deaths of children when Israel bombs a family or when a US drone strike takes out women and children. We should have just as much news coverage of tearful parents and stunned townspeople because their horror and grief and suffering is just as valid but national policy is to destroy other people's societies.
Again, I'm not downplaying this event as unimportant or not as important as those other things, I'm saying those other massacres are as important as this one. When families are destroyed like this it matters not whether the killers were lone nuts or hired guns of an organisation or state or what justification the killers felt they had for the killing - except that when our governments kill other people's children we are partly culpable.
All of this money and time spent killing other people's children in the Middle East under the guise of a war on terror or in South America under the guise of a war on drugs hasn't made our children safe. In fact when governments continually use violence and terror as a matter of policy it inevitably legitimizes the use of violence. The problem isn't guns per se: the problem is thinking that shooting people with guns is a legitimate solution to your problems.
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Indeed, who cares about the Phillipines for instance anyway?
 
This unforgivable tragedy is beyond comprehension. On the surface, it is eerily similar to the horror at Dunblane (sorry if I misspelled Robert).

I am also deeply disappointed to see both sides of the gun issue speak so soon. The parents just received the bodies yesterday. They haven't even been buried yet. Shame on the politicians (all of them) for capitalizing on this "opportunity" so soon. Vultures... all of them. There will be time to debate and discuss in the near future... but not now. Have these people no shame!? (It's a rhetorical question... we all know the answer).

Before I make any comment, I want to know all the facts. They aren't there yet. Both sides need to step back and wait for the report. Then let the politicians debate.

Sadness...

Regards,
Ltstanfo
 
ltstanfo said:
This unforgivable tragedy is beyond comprehension. On the surface, it is eerily similar to the horror at Dunblane (sorry if I misspelled Robert).

I am also deeply disappointed to see both sides of the gun issue speak so soon. The parents just received the bodies yesterday. They haven't even been buried yet. Shame on the politicians (all of them) for capitalizing on this "opportunity" so soon. Vultures... all of them. There will be time to debate and discuss in the near future... but not now. Have these people no shame!? (It's a rhetorical question... we all know the answer).

Before I make any comment, I want to know all the facts. They aren't there yet. Both sides need to step back and wait for the report. Then let the politicians debate.
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I do understand that. The problem is that every time this thing happens it's "too soon" to talk about it, and then we forget about it. Until of course the next shooting, but then it's again "too soon". It's a pattern. At some point, the pattern needs to break. When would be a good time for you?
 
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Glaucus said:
I do understand that. The problem is that every time this thing happens it's "too soon" to talk about it, and then we forget about it. Until of course the next shooting, but then it's again "too soon". It's a pattern. At some point, the pattern needs to break. When would be a good time for you?
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I never thought I would be typing this but I am truly disappointed in you Mike. When would be a good time... since you are apparently in the camp of those who can't even let parents bury their kids before the debate begins? Fine... I'll tell you:

1. Let the funerals complete. Family comes first... always.
2. Let the police finish their investigation and release their findings. There's no question of who, just why and what, if any federal and state laws were not followed with respect to the topic that is apparently being rushed into view... ahead of the grieving.

This topic cannot be ignored. It must be discussed.... but not now. Perhaps you mean well and perhaps I misunderstand your intent but I expected better of you. You've always appeared to be reasonable before. Sadness.

Regards,
Ltstanfo
 
Like I said, I understand all that. But here's the problem, spree killings happen so frequently in the US that we're always in stages 1 or 2 above. Before the school shooting the bodies were just freshly buried and we were waiting for the police report from the mass shooting in a shopping mall just days before. There's a strong possibility that there will be another mass shooting somewhere in the US before Christmas. And another before New Years. So we're always either waiting for someone to be buried or for some police report to come out. Sure this incident may be far worse than others, but they're all bad. This isn't an isolated incident and we can't expect there to be a moratorium on spree killings until we figure out what to do. In other words, we are forced to discuss this while the body counts keep going up. Don't make it sound like I actually enjoy this, I don't.
 
@Mike
The last time the country (in general) reacted with their heart instead of their head, we got the TSA in airports, train stations, bus stations and on the highways. How has that worked out for us? How many terrorists have the TSA stopped? (Here's a hint, the number is less than one).

This is no different.
 
ltstanfo said:
When would be a good time... since you are apparently in the camp of those who can't even let parents bury their kids before the debate begins?
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The parents will bury their kids anyway. They will be involved in that and they won't be involved in the debate. The rest of us are not burying our kids. There is no reason for us to wait. It would be a lot more straightforward if something like disease was killing kids. We wouldn't sit around saying - now is not a good time to talk about it; let the parents bury their kids first. When it happens is a good time for the rest of us to talk about it.

The reason it becomes not good to talk about is political. The NRA knows that discussion in the heat of the moment will go against them so they ask that the discussion be postponed "out of respect". The gun control lobby want to move ahead while emotions are raw. Personally I am not too interested in either of those postures.

Guns make mass killing easier but don't necessarily result in mass killings. Making guns harder to get doesn't stop people from getting them, and banning guns when a country is already full of them is just impossible anyway - that genie is out of the bottle.

The "going out in a blaze of glory / hail of bullets" phantasy is not unlike the "strap a bomb to yourself and blow up the oppressor" mindset. What puts these sort of phantasies into people's heads in a rich country like the US? What is it that makes troubled people see this as a good idea, even a high ideal? What are the social stresses? Are there just crazy people from time to time and nothing can be done, or can we help crazy people before they go off? We don't know anything yet and we never really seem to learn because every time this happens the same old "let's ban guns/ let's not talk about it yet" stalemate comes up - it becomes all about the dead people and their families and not about the rest of us. The rest of us deserve some respect too. When bad stuff happens we need to talk about it - we are human after all.
 
redrumloa said:
@Mike
The last time the country (in general) reacted with their heart instead of their head, we got the TSA in airports, train stations, bus stations and on the highways.
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Here's the thing though, 9/11 was something totally new for America. Spree killings in the US has a long history. People have had plenty of time to ponder it which is why the NRA's positions are so well entrenched. They are quick to douse the flames of outrage with comments like "it's too soon", which are designed to make those expressing their well thought out opinions as people who are just being "emotional". Which is another way of saying they are irrational. But that's not really the case, people didn't just decide yesterday on their opinion of guns.
 
ltstanfo said:
Perhaps you mean well and perhaps I misunderstand your intent but I expected better of you. You've always appeared to be reasonable before. Sadness.
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I like to think I'm reasonable. Now as for sadness, this goes far beyond what I would call sad:

Westboro Baptist Church to Picket Sandy Hook Massacre, Praise Deaths

You see, if people used their fire arms for good instead of evil, such as gunning down these stupid mofos, then perhaps the debate on guns would be quite different.

EDIT: This seems to have brought out their old nemesis:
Anonymous sets sights on an old enemy—the Westboro Baptist Church

In response to the WBC's plans early today, Anonymous tweeted, "It's so nice of #WBC to provide the internet with a list of their twitter handles..." Roughly one hour later, they revealed their plans for the WBC: "#WBC GodHatesFags Site Admin gets #DOX'd via: Anonymous." DOX, of course, refers to the work Anonymous did to find and publish a list of WBC members complete with e-mails, phone numbers, and even home addresses—all for the adoring public to access.
In addition to the DOXing, Anonymous has repeatedly promoted a whitehouse.org petition to have the WBC recognized legally as a hate-group. The petition was created on Friday and it has already doubled the required 25,000 signatures.
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Need not worry about it being "too soon" anymore. It's quite obvious that it's just "too late". No escaping a fiasco now.
 
I saw the list that Anonymous gave out and immediately copied all the info (hee hee)....because ya never know when ya might need it...


anyway,
there's been some talk on "rag" tabloid papers (epapers) along the line of this:

Sandy Hook Shooter's Mother Collected Guns In Preparation For Economic Collapse

there's no doubt she had guns....what I want to know is, how did her son get a hold of them??? Were they NOT under lock and key? The ex-cops I know who have guns keep them in a safe. I never see them getting flashed about.

I'll Never understand why ANYONE needs an assault rifle. :rolleyes:

Was this boy really autistic? Was he often violent?
What is wrong with the heath system that such children don't get the real care they need - so the rest of us are safe.

the real revolution is the heath care for these people. Are they depressed? Mentally incompetent? This society has to stop ignoring them.
And we can't wait.



btw, my friend who lives in the neighboring town has nieces and nephews around the age of 8 and even though they don't go to the school where this happened (it's close by) they are afraid to go to their own school.
So, yeah, kids are freaked out.
sigh
 
Thanks for the link Cecilia. The very last paragraph of the article was interesting:
A poll by CNN in August found that 57 per cent of Americans favour a ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, while 60 per cent favour outlawing high-capacity ammunition clips.
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I guess this guns down the idea that discussing this "too soon" might lead to a knee jerk reaction that would only make things worse. It seems people have been wanting change for some time now, the question is, why aren't they getting it?
 
cecilia said:
Was this boy really autistic? Was he often violent?
What is wrong with the heath system that such children don't get the real care they need - so the rest of us are safe.
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Wait wow what? Screw that!
Autism so often abused by people who just heard another term but don't know what it means yet spray it all over us like a manure spreader.
 
cecilia said:
I'll Never understand why ANYONE needs an assault rifle. :rolleyes:
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Well, there was a chap from GOA (Gun Owners of America or something, I think) on Radio Scotland this morning arguing that reducing the number of guns is exactly the wrong direction to go in and that having more guns would prevent incidents such as this. He expanded on this by explaining that, had the teachers all been carrying assault rifles, it would never have happened.

Taken in isolation, it's actually a fair point.

However, he somewhat undermined his argument when, after being asked how it would've worked in the recent cinema massacre if the police arrived to find more than one shooter, his response was to completely body-swerve it and express faux amazement that anyone in Europe could have the nerve to question death rates from guns in the US when we've all been committing genocide for centuries.
Absolute fruitcake.

He was still ranting about Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini when the presenter cut him off.
 
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