Lap Bomber???

[Glaucus]

heck, I'm in danger every time i cross the street.

Sure, but would you rather manage the risk of crossing the street or deal with a hired hitman set on assassinating you? I'm guessing you're not likely to be targeted for death and purely by the numbers you're not likely to die in a terror attack either, however that doesn't mean no one else will. The idea is to prevent the unnecessary loss of life, not just our own survival.

i'm aware that this guy was a complete idiot and didn't plan out this thing At ALL.

Idiot? Maybe, or just disillusioned or just searching for a cause or a purpose. Not planning it out? Maybe not, but someone certainly did. Idiots don't just happen to stumble across pentaerythritol tetranitrate, one of the most high explosives known that also just happens to be very difficult to detect. Someone with access to some pretty nasty shit gave it to him along with the harness and instructions on how to use it. Granted, they're pioneering new attack vectors here, they will eventually iron out the kinks.

my feeling is that he's just another nut and like the shoe bomber is emotional about his delusions but doesn't really know what the hell he's doing. people like them don't plan out this in cold blood.

Like I said before, there were mistakes made, but the harness and 80g of PETN should not be taken lightly (according to US government tests, it is believed that 50g of PETN is enough to take down a plane). Smart people don't usually volunteer for suicide bomber duty, but they're more then happy to help with the bomb making and planning. Eventually they'll simplify it and make it idiot proof.

I really doubt guys like them are going to terrorists school to learn how to take down planes. the potential may "terrify" some people, but frankly this is just an annoyance. I'm not afraid of them.

If they become effective and more common, people will choose to not fly - a decision based on fear. That's a big if, hopefully our detection methods will improve before that happens. However, I've heard that airport security here in Canada is a joke and from what I can see we're not alone. Weird thing is, there's greater security going up the CN tower then on a plane - they actually have hi-tech bomb sniffing equipment (aka puffer machines) at the CN tower elevators but I saw nothing like it at Pearson International. Such a device can detect PETN. I find that disturbing.

 

[metalman]

U.S. State Department employees say such information was flagged and given high priority during the Bush Administration, but that since the Obama Administration took office, "we are encouraged to not create the appearance that we are profiling or targeting Muslims."

Unvalidated heresay. But, let's assume it's true. Perhaps the problem is lack in leadership. Why is there a lack in leadership? GOP blocking Obama's TSA nomination Why? It appears Republicans are more worried about unionization than worried about terrorists.

Obama didn't even bother to nominate Southers until late September, and TSA has nothing to do with the decision to allow Umar Abdulmutallab to board the Northwest flight from Amsterdam. State Department is in charge of the no-fly watch list.

Southers misled Congress about an incident in which he violated privacy laws

Maureen Dowd, NYT : "If we can’t catch a Nigerian with a powerful explosive powder in his oddly feminine-looking underpants and a syringe full of acid, a man whose own father had alerted the U.S. Embassy in Nigeria, a traveler whose ticket was paid for in cash and who didn’t check bags, whose visa renewal had been denied by the British, who had studied Arabic in al-Qaida sanctuary Yemen, whose name was on a counterterrorism watch list, who can we catch?”

 

[faethor]

Southers misled Congress about an incident in which he violated privacy laws

Interesting post about an ommission of a misdemeanor from 20+ years ago. Though as noted in your article the Republicans, lead by DeMint, weren't concerned about that. They were afraid of Unionization, which BTW is legal.

 

[metalman]

Southers misled Congress about an incident in which he violated privacy laws

Interesting post about an ommission of a misdemeanor from 20+ years ago.

If he can't give honest testimony about an incident 20 years ago to Congress, what confidence is there he would give honest testimony about other matters in the future? TSA has access to very sensitive information

Its a felony to access a police data base for unlawful non-official purposes. He has now committed 3 felonies, twice unlawfully accessing data, once perjury before Congress.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

i'm aware that this guy was a complete idiot and didn't plan out this thing At ALL. my feeling is that he's just another nut and like the shoe bomber is emotional about his delusions but doesn't really know what the hell he's doing. people like them don't plan out this in cold blood.

It's hard to say whether he is just some deluded guy acting alone but I'd suspect that he is not. Or rather, delude3d he may be but acting alone probably not.

There is witness testimony that suggests that he got on the flight under unusual circumstances without a passport and being boarded by other than the normal protocol with the help of a well dressed man presenting him as a Sudanese refugee.

If he were a loner that was able to get his hands on PETN (not an outrageous impossibility) you would expect that he would at least have taken the time to get enough to prove his detonation method with a few tests. Failure to do so suggests either over confidence or that he was not the original planner. If he is competent enough to acquire the materials then he should be competent enough to make it work and not end up with the nasty surprise of a flaming groin and failed mission.

Either he was not the originator of the explosive plot and didn't know how to properly detonate the device or it wasn't meant to detonate - without knowing all the ingredients it's hard to say which it was but it seems likely it was the former though I wouldn't count out the latter.

That the man's father had alerted the authorities to his sons mysterious changes in lifestyle and attitude indicates that he may well have fallen under the influence of a group or individual. That he made it onto the terrorism watch list indicates that the concern was sufficient to be taken seriously - and that he failed to be put on the no fly list indicates that the no fly list is a load of cr@p which is no great surprise at all.

I think that there is sufficient grounds to infer that persons unknown were involved and that the intelligence agencies were at least engaged though apparently ineffectually, or they may have had sufficient access to cause the plot to fail.

It is also possible that the "bomber" was a Manchurian candidate, largely unaware of what was going on but conditioned to push the plunger on the syringe on a given signal. Such an act is not overtly suicidal so could be conditioned. On the other hand ideological indoctrination seems to be sufficient to make suicide bombers and suicide bombers make the best agents because they cannot rat out their co-conspirators. If it was a criminal group behind this then he was almost certainly supposed to die and this would be a very unsettling development.

If he was meant to fail then his handlers would all be protected individuals though he himself would believe himself to be a criminal.

I am interested to see if we'll learn any more but it'll probably fall out of the news cycle like the shoe bomber did - cop a plea and go to jail. The description of Reid's attempted attack, by the way, reads like the story of a guy trying to fail.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

If they become effective and more common, people will choose to not fly

That's an effective way of mitigating the risk and it doesn't really have a downside. People don't actually need to fly.

 

[redrumloa]

That's an effective way of mitigating the risk and it doesn't really have a downside. People don't actually need to fly.

Depends on what you mean by need. I can count on one hand the number of times I have flown in my life. However there are certainly times were I may not only need to fly, I must fly. My company has an annual engineering conference in Tucson, AZ. Living in Fort Lauderdale, Tuscon is over 2,200 miles away. Driving is certainly not a viable option. Refusing to go would certainly not be beneficial for my position in the company.

 

[metalman]

IMO we have the wrong inspection system. Out of this event they want to install 'Naked Imagers'. It's a good idea to a point. The point is they are still defeatable. So assuming technology will protect us to a 100% level is misguided.

A Dutch military intelligence source told De Telegraaf newspaper that Al Qaeda has its own security scanners and has been practicing ways of concealing explosives.

The terrorists are a step ahead.

We should look at others around the world and see how they accomplish this. Isreal is a good example of a nation that's a high terrorist target and very successful at disallowing terrorists on their planes. While they do employ technology they also talk to everyone and screen them with a discussion. I believe this would help over the 'put your bag in this box', 'wait at the scanner' we get from our security. The problem here is the cost is low and nonrecurring. I doubt the businesses the government asked for help would propse a small psych evaluation.

While we are busy Mirandizing terrorists such as the Nigerian underwear bomber, Putin has a whole different approach to terrorism.

G-8 summit press conference 2008
FRENCH JOURNALIST: ...Don't you think that by trying to eradicate terrorism in Chechnya you are going to eradicate the civilian population of Chechnya?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: If you want to become an Islamic fundamentalist and be circumcised, come to Moscow. We are multiconfessional. We have very good specialists. I can recommend one for the operation. He'll make sure nothing grows back.

Putin video

The Israeli system consists essentially of behavior profiling, very effective, politically incorrect.

however, we'll just continue searching for an Episcopalian suicide bomber, just to be Politically Correct
Its the Christians

 

[faethor]

If he can't give honest testimony about an incident 20 years ago to Congress, what confidence is there he would give honest testimony about other matters in the future? TSA has access to very sensitive information

Good question. Wish the Republicans would have thought of it instead of being against legal activity -- possible union favoritsm.

Its a felony to access a police data base for unlawful non-official purposes. He has now committed 3 felonies, twice unlawfully accessing data, once perjury before Congress.

So the article you quoted is untrue when it said misdemanor?

 

[faethor]

The Israeli system consists essentially of behavior profiling, very effective, politically incorrect.

however, we'll just continue searching for an Episcopalian suicide bomber, just to be Politically Correct
Its the Christians

Don't forget America has it's own home grown terrorists. While Muslisms have the headlines today we should ensure we help protect against those such as the ALF, Timothy McVeigh, KKK, John Brown, and how about the uncaught 2001 Anthrax senders? Watching only Muslims may end up missing some of these other groups.

 

[Glaucus]

If they become effective and more common, people will choose to not fly

That's an effective way of mitigating the risk and it doesn't really have a downside. People don't actually need to fly.

Well then, maybe we could just ban Muslims from flying since they don't need to fly and then there won't be any risk to mitigate for the rest of us.

 

[metalman]

If they become effective and more common, people will choose to not fly

That's an effective way of mitigating the risk and it doesn't really have a downside. People don't actually need to fly.

Well then, maybe we could just ban Muslims from flying since they don't need to fly and then there won't be any risk to mitigate for the rest of us.

That should make devout Muslims happy since there were no airplanes in Mohammad's (pbuh) time, so plane flying is haram. There is a flying winged-horse in the Quran (Burak or Buraq), so the Muslims should use flying winged-horses, only the Kuffar should use airplanes.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

If they become effective and more common, people will choose to not fly

That's an effective way of mitigating the risk and it doesn't really have a downside. People don't actually need to fly.

Well then, maybe we could just ban Muslims from flying since they don't need to fly and then there won't be any risk to mitigate for the rest of us.

People choosing to stop certain behaviours versus forcing restrictive behaviours on certain groups are two very different things.

Planes will still go down and stopping one class of people from getting on them won't stop that.

 

[Glaucus]

People choosing to stop certain behaviours versus forcing restrictive behaviours on certain groups are two very different things.

Planes will still go down and stopping one class of people from getting on them won't stop that.

It saddens me to think you may actually have believed I was serious. Honestly, I thought your post about not needing to fly was kinda silly, so I countered with an equally silly post.

 

[redrumloa]

however, we'll just continue searching for an Episcopalian suicide bomber, just to be Politically Correct
Its the Christians

:roflmao:

 

[redrumloa]

Don't forget America has it's own home grown terrorists. While Muslisms have the headlines today we should ensure we help protect against those such as the ALF, Timothy McVeigh, KKK, John Brown, and how about the uncaught 2001 Anthrax senders? Watching only Muslims may end up missing some of these other groups.

While true, (though what has the KKK done in the the last in the last 50 years?) I don't think Mcveigh and others were on a christian jihad of any sort. They are also not part of any international terrorist organization.

 

[faethor]

While true, (though what has the KKK done in the the last in the last 50 years?) I don't think Mcveigh and others were on a christian jihad of any sort. They are also not part of any international terrorist organization.

All examples of homegrown terrorists. They have, do, and will exist. So our programs should be encompassing enough to discover terrorists be them Muslim or any other type.

McVeigh believed taking down Oklahoma City would cause others to revolt and take down the government. Perhaps a "lone-wolf" terrorist but a terrorist none-the-less.

There are Christian terrorists in the USA. Army of God for example. And certainly Eric Rudolph should strike some concerns in the Alabamians here as that state was his target.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

People choosing to stop certain behaviours versus forcing restrictive behaviours on certain groups are two very different things.

Planes will still go down and stopping one class of people from getting on them won't stop that.

It saddens me to think you may actually have believed I was serious.

I didn't take your "proposal" seriously but I did feel the need to point out the very different categories of the proposals.

Honestly, I thought your post about not needing to fly was kinda silly, so I countered with an equally silly post.

Even when your employer tells you to get on a plane it's usually not because he "needs" you to get on a plane. More often than not it's terribly inefficient and expensive. There are less and less compelling reasons to fly as airlines continue to discover.

 

[metalman]

New TSA security measures target 13 Muslim countries +Cuba

All passengers from countries on the State Department’s “State Sponsors of Terrorism” list – plus all passengers from other "countries of interest" such as Nigeria, Pakistan and Yemen — will receive “full body pat-down and physical inspection of property,”

 

[faethor]

While true, (though what has the KKK done in the the last in the last 50 years?)

The Imperial Wizard of White Knights of the KKK and Christian Identity follower David Wayne Hull was arrested for planning bombings within the US in 2003 and convicted in 2006.