Next step in religious persecution?

[metalman]

So you pick a few lines from the bible and you say "That's Christianity" but other Christians use a few different lines and so the merry games go on.

All mainstream denominations focus on Sermon on the Mount
If they focus on some other teachings they're a cult branched away from mainstream Christianity

God lacks empathy? The old testament makes so much more sense now.

God mellowed out in the New Testament
New Testament => empathy

 

[metalman]

Science and secular government.

 

[metalman]

Went right over your head, didn't it. Think your religion and your god as the theme to this clip. The Psychopath IS God. That is the point of the video.

The God of the Old Testament is psychopathic.
An Atheist follows the path to "playing god" just on a smaller scale

 

[metalman]

According to gods own words, he wiped out every man woman and child bar one family. Not sure what the numbers would be, but as a percentage, I don't think "communist atheists" are even in the same league as that.

If you interpret the flood story literally rather than an allegory

In fact, if you go through the old and new testaments, looking at how he dealt with and told his followers to deal with his enemies, by modern standards he's a bit of a prick

psychopathic "god complex"

Christianity, or rather, the reformation has offered the single biggest benefit to society in the form of a path toward science.

Almost all we know of Greek and Roman culture and history was because of Monks in the Middle Ages transcribing old documents

Consider that the Islamic empire was superior in every way to Europe until the reformation and the embracing of ideas. Islam's dominance ended not as a result of conquest (which came later), but because they fell back on religion.

Islam was never superior, they just went through their liberal despotic phase, and brought a lot of new information to Europe they learned from the Hindu's (e.g. algebra)

Islamic societies, generally, pass through three phases of political development. The final phase is the “repressive despotic”. This usually means the establishment of an absolute theocratic state in which the only curb on the activities of the monarch is that of, a frequently, even more fanatical clergy. Islam has been long established and become hardened and inflexible. Intellectual activity outside of Islamic law and tradition is discouraged. This is often accompanied by economic depression and stagnation. The ruler may be paradoxically both weak and tyrannical; Persecution and oppression of non-Muslims is endemic. The two forms of despotism, liberal and despotic, may alternate with each other for long periods, but in the end, it is invariably the repressive despotic imperative that triumphs.

 

[the_leander]

I would disagree with that, strongly. Science is at it's core simply a means of codifying the world around us. In this, we have discovered a great deal, the very fact we're having this conversation in the medium we are is proof of science's efficacy.

Have individuals and or groups misused science to further their own means? Absolutely, but I would argue that on balance we have got it right more than we have wrong. Science is also something that religion will never be: Self correcting.

Whilst people abusing science will always happen to one extent or the other, the very method means that their efforts will always be short lived, with the advent of the internet, the time between discovering abuse and it not only being called out but stomped on will only continue to get smaller.

I say this as someone writing this on a device that has no wires connected to it, that is able to go online anywhere in the country thanks to hsdpa networking, typing away on a keyboard that also has no wires attached to it. I say this as someone who is only alive today as a result of medical science's discoveries about the workings of the human body, and as someone who would have been orphaned at birth without same said intervention.

Science is not a moral code, attempting to use it as such is doomed to failure.

 

[the_leander]

If you interpret the flood story literally rather than an allegory

Which plenty of your countrymen do.

Almost all we know of Greek and Roman culture and history was because of Monks in the Middle Ages transcribing old documents

Cute but wrong. Most of that information was recovered first by coptic christians who later converted to islam. During this period Europe for the most part was a bit busy with the whole dark ages thing.... Christians were for example responsible for the destruction of the library of alexandria, for example.

Islam was never superior,

What colour is the sky on the planet you spend most of your time? Yes, the islamic empire pulled in information from all over the place. Unlike Europeans who were for the most part busy using books as a fuel source, the muslims put the works of the earlier greek and roman empires to practical use. Their medical, mathematical and engineering capabilities were decades ahead of Europe pre enlightenment.

they just went through their liberal despotic phase, and brought a lot of new information to Europe they learned from the Hindu's (e.g. algebra)

Brought it to europe? That's one way of putting it I guess, and much nicer than it was bagged up as booty as a result of the crusades...

Islamic societies, generally, pass through three phases of political development. The final phase is the “repressive despotic”. This usually means the establishment of an absolute theocratic state in which the only curb on the activities of the monarch is that of, a frequently, even more fanatical clergy. Islam has been long established and become hardened and inflexible. Intellectual activity outside of Islamic law and tradition is discouraged. This is often accompanied by economic depression and stagnation. The ruler may be paradoxically both weak and tyrannical; Persecution and oppression of non-Muslims is endemic. The two forms of despotism, liberal and despotic, may alternate with each other for long periods, but in the end, it is invariably the repressive despotic imperative that triumphs.

Meanwhile, in dark ages Europe, being a non christian was almost always a death sentence, even jews got better treatment in the various islamic empires than they did further west.

 

[faethor]

Almost all we know of Greek and Roman culture and history was because of Monks in the Middle Ages transcribing old documents

How did the Christians get those old documents? The Crusades where they killed off various Jews and Muslims. The largest center of knowledge, Library of Alexandria, was burned by Bishop Theophilia around 400AD. Muslims, another so called empathic religion, finished the job. Christians saved their favorite texts and transcribed those. Transcription didn't come due to empathy but selfish promotion of their own religion.

 

[faethor]

@the_leander,

Science being self correcting is a hugely important difference. It doesn't judge the knowledge it discovers it. This enables us to apply knowledge on how to best benefit society.

I think the last month of religious vs scientific activity shows greatly the dilineation between these two concepts. Religion's unempathic view of minorities has got Christian owners of Chik-fil-a not only speaking in unempathic ways but donating to organizations in Africa that demand the deaths of gays. I can hardly think of anything less empathic than death before one is on their death bed. Religion's unempathic views of individual rights is demanding rape victims live in victimhood for 9 months then push out the result of that crime. Giving up one's rights to the state is fairly unempathic, IMO. Religon's unempathic care of knowledge is enabling other Christians to try and make laws which allow grade school kids exempt themselves from whatever learning they want. Just believe you don't need to learn it. ... At the same time science is landing on Mars while testing AIDS vaccines and kidney cancer cures.

God must hate amputees. He's never turned his almightly power into regrowing a limb. Luckily science has stepped up and because of science we have a runner with no bottom legs in the Olympics.

 

[the_leander]

How did the Christians get those old documents? The Crusades where they killed off various Jews and Muslims. The largest center of knowledge, Library of Alexandria, was burned by Bishop Theophilia around 400AD. Muslims, another so called empathic religion, finished the job. Christians saved their favorite texts and transcribed those. Transcription didn't come due to empathy but selfish promotion of their own religion.

Don't you just love how he rather than address anything beyond sniping at side issues, has not once but twice attempted to move the direction away from Christianity being in the wrong for something, to "but the atheists/Communists/Muslims are have done bad things too!"

 

[cecilia]

I say this as someone writing this on a device that has no wires connected to it, that is able to go online anywhere in the country thanks to hsdpa networking, typing away on a keyboard that also has no wires attached to it. I say this as someone who is only alive today as a result of medical science's discoveries about the workings of the human body, and as someone who would have been orphaned at birth without same said intervention.

Right on!
I've known my whole life that I am one of THE luckiest people who have EVER lived - and I'm counting the millions and millions of years of humans on this planet. Even poor people in civilized countries have toilets. The damn royalty in middle ages Europe didn't. We have toys now they no rich person had then. We literally can live better than kings. And healthier. All of that is knowledge/science/technology.

mom just had cataract surgery and can now see so well she doesn't need glasses. (20/25) - I'm not going to reveal her age but if you knew you would be amazed.
And my brother's heart operation! A leaky valve may not kill anyone but it sure would shorten his life or the quality of it. And if there's someone that deserves a long and happy life it's my brother.

I love science. and I love living now when I can see all these amazing things. How sad for the people who are imprisoned in their religious shackles

 

[faethor]

@Cecilia,

In the last 100 years the lifespan of humans has been extended by nearly 35 years. This is the largest increase of life expectency in the 2 million year history of humans. This isn't because God decided to grant us a few more years. It's because of, as you say, science and it's resulting technology. Increases in knowledge of sanitary conditions, and in medical cures have served people well.

The result of science is society is facing new problems never before faced by humans. That is how do we handle large groups of old people? How will laws and expectations need to be changed? One of Social Security's problems is it was constructed with a set of expections. Such as the average age of death was X. We've changed those conditions but not yet sufficently changed the system to deal with it.

 

[Glaucus]

loss of life due to communist atheists is approximately 110 million people between 1917 and 1987.


Doesn't prevent it any single individual, but there are benefits to society of reinforcing empathy

Of the societies that have advanced the most in the last 500 years, they have had one thing in common, Christianity. with Japan as the lone non-Christian society in the group.

The interesting thing is, the same societies that have advanced the most in the last 500 years are also the same that advanced the most 2000 years ago as well. Europeans for the most part just happened to be more advanced, which is why they ended up conquering the others and continue to advance rapidly. In the game of life, those with a head start tend to exploit that for as long as they can. There's little reason to believe that Christianity had anything to do with it. The ancient Greeks were pretty advanced when they were pagan. Christianity did provide Greece with a second empire (Byzantium) but it didn't help preserve it. In fact I believe Christianity, a religion written and spread mostly by Greeks, reflects the ancient Hellenistic values. I believe you are mistaking those values of personal liberty, expression, philosophy and democracy as originating from Christianity. But you're wrong, these are values that originated from a multi-god society which makes sense as you'd need such values for the people to respect each other. If anything Christianity diminishes the Hellenistic values as it is, like all monotheistic religions, divisive.

 

[Glaucus]

If you interpret the flood story literally rather than an allegory

It used to be that if a plague spread across the land people would interpret that as punishment from god. We tend not to think that way today as we can isolate bacteria and viruses in labs and even treat them. However, you really can't prove that diseases like HIV are not punishment from god, and there are still Christians who believe that it is - even think it's great.

 

[faethor]

Timely discussion on morality, religion, and science --

 

[metalman]

Most of that information was recovered first by coptic christians who later converted to islam. During this period Europe for the most part was a bit busy with the whole dark ages thing.... Christians were for example responsible for the destruction of the library of alexandria, for example.

Coptics are still in Egypt

Muslims not only destroyed the library of Alexandria but also of Babylon

Yes, the islamic empire pulled in information from all over the place. Unlike Europeans who were for the most part busy using books as a fuel source, the muslims put the works of the earlier greek and roman empires to practical use. Their medical, mathematical and engineering capabilities were decades ahead of Europe pre enlightenment

the only part of the ancient Greek heritage assimilated into Muslim culture was slavery, and anal sex with young boys

the Arab conquests and Islamic repression largely destroyed Greco-Roman Classical civilization in North Africa and parts of the Middle East, which were more urbanized than Europe.

Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited: The History of a Controversy

Brought it to europe? That's one way of putting it I guess, and much nicer than it was bagged up as booty as a result of the crusades...

trade routes
Which came first, the Muslim jihad expansion or the Crusades???

 

[Glaucus]

Coptics are still in Egypt

Muslims not only destroyed the library of Alexandria but also of Babylon

Where do you get your history from? Ancient writers predating both Christianity and Islam wrote about the destruction of the great library of Alexandria. If Muslims also attacked a later incarnation of it is beside the point, from a historical point of view it's greatness was already lost. If you wanna keep a running tally, then we should also state that the library "lives again" as Bibliotheca Alexandrina. Who built it? Muslims. Hosni Mubarak was it's biggest supporter.

 

[cecilia]

Where do you get your history from? Ancient writers predating both Christianity and Islam wrote about the destruction of the great library of Alexandria. If Muslims also attacked a later incarnation of it is beside the point, from a historical point of view it's greatness was already lost. If you wanna keep a running tally, then we should also state that the library "lives again" as Bibliotheca Alexandrina. Who built it? Muslims. Hosni Mubarak was it's biggest supporter.

you have to remember many Americans have a horrible and spotty education.

 

[metalman]

The interesting thing is, the same societies that have advanced the most in the last 500 years are also the same that advanced the most 2000 years ago as well. Europeans for the most part just happened to be more advanced, which is why they ended up conquering the others and continue to advance rapidly. In the game of life, those with a head start tend to exploit that for as long as they can. There's little reason to believe that Christianity had anything to do with it. The ancient Greeks were pretty advanced when they were pagan. Christianity did provide Greece with a second empire (Byzantium) but it didn't help preserve it. In fact I believe Christianity, a religion written and spread mostly by Greeks, reflects the ancient Hellenistic values. I believe you are mistaking those values of personal liberty, expression, philosophy and democracy as originating from Christianity. But you're wrong, these are values that originated from a multi-god society which makes sense as you'd need such values for the people to respect each other. If anything Christianity diminishes the Hellenistic values as it is, like all monotheistic religions, divisive.

Progression of Western Culture
Hellenistic <=> Roman <=> Christianity <=> Germanic

Greek culture dominated the ancient world, but they never united, except under extreme outside military pressure, most of the time they spent their time fighting among themselves.

Paul's message was quickly adopted and spread by the Greeks. Christian culture was shaped in a Greco-Roman environment and heavily influenced by Greek philosophy and Roman law. Paul claimed almost total independence from the Jerusalem community and it was Paul who most vigorously sought to convert the Gentiles. Paul synthesized Judaism, Gnosticism, and mysticism to create Christianity. Paul, in his epistles, made use of many of the ideas of Plato. Christianity is a Greek religion built on a older Jewish spiritual legacy.

 

[cecilia]

Timely discussion on morality, religion, and science --

thanks.

 

[faethor]

Muslims not only destroyed the library of Alexandria but also of Babylon

Yes Muslims dealt the coup de gras to the Library of Alexandria. The Pope made paganism illegal. (So much for empathy). The Pope ordered the Bishop Theophilus to follow his decree, and he did. Because the temple and primary depository (Serapeum and Mithreum) were on pagan grounds they were ordered burned to the grounds. Soon after were anti-Arianism riots which destroyed more of the library. -- Both local Pagan Historians and Christian Historians document these events.

Muslisms claimed to have destroyed the library. However, only Muslim Historians have this event recorded. Historians dispute the Muslim claims If true they destroyed a couple of minor wings. The majority of destruction been completed prior to their arrival by the thoroughness of the Catholic Bishops.

trade routes
Which came first, the Muslim jihad expansion or the Crusades???

They hit me first! - Religion the Grade School arguements for adults. You contend Christianity is all about the Sermon on the Mount. Did Christianity really give them their other cheek as you'd lead us to believe?

Paul's message was quickly adopted and spread by the Greeks.

You're spot on here. What we call Christian was founded by Saul. He hadn't ever met Jesus. And many of his writings conflict with stated Jesus sayings. Instead churches wind up with a Paul interpreted version of the 'telephone game' of Jesus. It more righly should be called Pauline as many things don't follow Gospel teachings.