Riddle me this Democrats and general leftists...

[redrumloa]

I realized i never did properly respond to your post. It was very well thought out and i generally agree with your points except one.

"The Left" is not actually a particularly useful term and here is where I have to tip my hat to Metalman. He pointed out, what 2 years ago? A specific faction within the left that seemed to the root of this.

He correctly pointed to the "progressives" as the source.

They represent a very specific mindset, rooted in Critical Race theory, Post Modernism all tied together with a fast and loose reading of Marx. They are every bit as authoritarian as anything the Religious Right can muster.

Speaking strictly about Democrats here in the USA, I don't really share the exact same opinion of Progressives vs Democrats as metalman. I think once upon a time that may be true, these days it seems if you do not support the Progressive movement you are cast out. I'll admit that I am influenced by what I see and read, and clearly the "Liberal Media" will not usually show dissenting views of not just those on the right, but those on the left about their opposition to Progressive politics. I also can only take what I see first hand from left leaning friends and others I have met. They either shut down conversations with "I don't talk about politics" (while voting strictly Dem tickets and Progressive issues) because they are poorly informed, or they strongly support this progressive push. It seems to me a classical liberal is becoming something of a dodo bird, an extinct species.

 

[metalman]

Speaking strictly about Democrats here in the USA, I don't really share the exact same opinion of Progressives vs Democrats as metalman. I think once upon a time that may be true, these days it seems if you do not support the Progressive movement you are cast out. I'll admit that I am influenced by what I see and read, and clearly the "Liberal Media" will not usually show dissenting views of not just those on the right, but those on the left about their opposition to Progressive politics. I also can only take what I see first hand from left leaning friends and others I have met. They either shut down conversations with "I don't talk about politics" (while voting strictly Dem tickets and Progressive issues) because they are poorly informed, or they strongly support this progressive push. It seems to me a classical liberal is becoming something of a dodo bird, an extinct species.

The Progressives have been slowly moving the Democratic Party hard Left. Its not a fixed ratio, the power has been changing every election cycle depending on who's candidates win in the primaries. In the next election cycle the Progressives will totally control the democratic party. It's those who vote in the primary's who determine the field of candidates. Progressives have been purging any moderate democrats from the party, and many democrats are waking up to the fact the party doesn't want moderates or care about expanding the economic pie, hence the a large numbers of working class democrats switching to vote for Trump.

The democrats only message for the last 3 election cycles has been identity politics, which is basically breaking down the electorate into a voting blocks of tribes. Enough working class white males last election decided they were tired of hearing about their "white privilege" and decided to vote as a tribe too.

 

[redrumloa]

Meanwhile in the Pedo Capital of the world...

California School Approves Transgender Books for Kindergartners, Disallows Parents to Remove Children from Class

The school board of Northern California’s Rocklin Academy Gateway voted unanimously to keep a policy that allows books that promote transgenderism to be read to children as young as five, but added a policy that they would warn parents before they did.

Despite notifying the parents, however, the school board denied a proposal to give parents the right to pull their children out of classes that would teach the children pro-transgender education, essentially making the notification rule useless.

The controversial vote came about after a kindergarten teacher read “I Am Jazz” — a book about a transgender child’s transition to the opposite sex — and then allegedly held something of a “transition ceremony” where a young boy went into a bathroom, and then reemerged dressed in girl’s clothing. The teacher identified the boy as a girl, with a girl’s name.

The event shocked and disturbed some of the children, many who went home crying that they were going to turn into the opposite sex.

When will Trump send in Federal Troops to protect these children from the pedophile sexual predators posing as teachers? This is textbook child abuse and sexual exploitation of very small children. Democrats are sick, sick human beings.

 

[the_leander]

Whilst I agree with the concerns of this article and further strongly argue against allowing children to transition (there are multiple biological reasons why this is a bad idea, not least of which is that puberty blockers at that age would render them sterile, it would also ironically stop a male to female tranny from ever being able to fully transition as the realignment surgery requires fully formed genitals to form the basis of the new set... ), you are on very shakey ground in the accusation of paedophilia and sexual exploitation.

The blanket accusation of all Democrats being sick human beings is no more valid than pinning the crimes of various Christian sects on the necks of Republicans. This stuff is coming from a very specific subset within the extreme authoritarian left, with the vast majority on both the left and right asking wtf they think they're playing at.

 

[redrumloa]

The blanket accusation of all Democrats being sick human beings is no more valid than pinning the crimes of various Christian sects on the necks of Republicans. This stuff is coming from a very specific subset within the extreme authoritarian left, with the vast majority on both the left and right asking wtf they think they're playing at.

Why is it so widespread with Democrats? We've had this discussion before and I don't think we quite agree. Here in the US, if this is not the mainstream democrat position, why aren't they publicly speaking out against it? Why is it all framed as only homophobic bible thumping rednecks against it? I think it might be hard for center to left leaning people outside the US to understand just how far out of whack the Democrat Party is. They seem to take their marching orders from above without question as a matter of faith.

Maybe I've just had really good luck with my interactions with Republicans and really, really, rally bad luck with my interactions with Democrats. On the right they do not match the pop culture negative stereotypes, while on the left we see what they are right out in the open and if you question them, they just resort to violence.

Where are the Democrats who are as outraged about the sexualization of children as I am? I don't think you will find them as this is just part of their wider view of what children are. They don't see children as human beings with emotions or rights, they see children as property with less value than pets or livestock. Why would they care if children are sexualized when they promote the killing of children as a rite of passage and a badge of honor. The same people who think children should be denied healthcare and allowed to die, because they lack as many life experiences as an adult and therefore are less of a human being?

BTW, don't take this as a jab at you. I get worked up when it comes to children, but it isn't aimed at anyone here.

 

[redrumloa]

no more valid than pinning the crimes of various Christian sects on the necks of Republicans

BTW, this is just propaganda spread through pop culture. Christian fundamentalists are no more Republican than they are Democrat, they infect both sides equally. In recent years we've seen churches take on a direct political tone, but on the left. Westborough Baptist Church? Democrats. Black Church network exploited by Messy Jackson and Al Charlatan? Democrat. 1980's PMRC? See Tipper & Al Gore, Democrat.

 

[redrumloa]

you are on very shakey ground in the accusation of paedophilia and sexual exploitation

It's called "grooming". This is textbook grooming. It is a crime and should be prosecuted.

Child grooming is befriending and establishing an emotional connection with a child, and sometimes the family, to lower the child's inhibitions with the object of sexual abuse.

 

[the_leander]

Why is it so widespread with Democrats? We've had this discussion before and I don't think we quite agree. Here in the US, if this is not the mainstream democrat position, why aren't they publicly speaking out against it? Why is it all framed as only homophobic bible thumping rednecks against it? I think it might be hard for center to left leaning people outside the US to understand just how far out of whack the Democrat Party is. They seem to take their marching orders from above without question as a matter of faith.

Possibly you're right on how out of touch the party is (I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on either side argue that the political class is not only a thing but completely out of touch with the needs of the people they supposedly serve), however as you have shown time and again, the media only covers what it is convenient to do so. If it fits the given narrative (and this is true of both the left and right leaning outlets) it gets shown. If the individual goes against the narrative they are denounced, their histories gone over with a fine toothed comb and anything at all that can be used against them, no matter how thin will be.

Maybe I've just had really good luck with my interactions with Republicans and really, really, rally bad luck with my interactions with Democrats. On the right they do not match the pop culture negative stereotypes, while on the left we see what they are right out in the open and if you question them, they just resort to violence.

Just as during the Bush era, the noisiest, crazyist people get the attention. Right now, it is convenient for the CNNs of the world to offer the sorts of views you're pointing to as being the default, the majority. Before it was Republicans holding the extremist views that even you found distasteful and said as much. I guess it's our turn.

Where are the Democrats who are as outraged about the sexualization of children as I am? I don't think you will find them as this is just part of their wider view of what children are. They don't see children as human beings with emotions or rights, they see children as property with less value than pets or livestock. Why would they care if children are sexualized when they promote the killing of children as a rite of passage and a badge of honor. The same people who think children should be denied healthcare and allowed to die, because they lack as many life experiences as an adult and therefore are less of a human being?

They can scream till they're blue in the face, but their message will be silenced by the very forces that seem to be egging this on. Moderates, both left and right aren't just being ignored, they're being actively shut down. All the while that the loony "progressive" types are navel-gazing over their preferred pronouns and just who is currently in the lead of the Oppression Olympics, real people are being hurt.

--edit-- Personal example, when progressive thought leaders were advocating "punch a Nazi" after Richard Spencer got thumped a few months back, I argued strongly against it, pushing for nonviolence and offering better ideas.

For the crime of not wanting to see blood on the streets I was declared to be a Nazi sympathiser...

BTW, don't take this as a jab at you. I get worked up when it comes to children, but it isn't aimed at anyone here.

I know dude, we all have our hot button issues and the points you raise frankly need to be. There are so many messed up things going on politically these days that it takes these sorts of stories to get to have the discussions that are needed.

And if that isn't a stunning indictment of where our societies are at, I don't know what is.

 

[the_leander]

It's called "grooming". This is textbook grooming. It is a crime and should be prosecuted.

Child grooming is befriending and establishing an emotional connection with a child, and sometimes the family, to lower the child's inhibitions with the object of sexual abuse.

If the children are being pressured into sexual acts or behaviours you've got a point, hell you could argue with confidence that pushing these sorts of subjects are beyond the scope of what a child could reasonably be expected to understand. At a stretch you could argue that pushing these sorts of ideas onto prepubescent children could be a form of abuse in and of itself as they simply haven't developed enough to process whats going on, but you'd have a serious job justifying the claim of grooming.

 

[redrumloa]

If the children are being pressured into sexual acts or behaviours you've got a point, hell you could argue with confidence that pushing these sorts of subjects are beyond the scope of what a child could reasonably be expected to understand. At a stretch you could argue that pushing these sorts of ideas onto prepubescent children could be a form of abuse in and of itself as they simply haven't developed enough to process whats going on, but you'd have a serious job justifying the claim of grooming.

You really don't think it is adult sexual thoughts towards children driving this? Why is almost their entire focus on little children and not adults?

(fyi, Bill Nye is a child's actor)

 

[the_leander]

You really don't think it is adult sexual thoughts towards children driving this? Why is almost their entire focus on little children and not adults?

Because, like religion, its about getting mind share and thus bums on seats. By pushing this progressive ideological framework on young, impressionable minds they hope to gain ground. These two particular examples are just one prong in a multifaceted plan. Ultimately it's not about sex but rather about gender identity and how this identity should be at the core of your own identity and decide who should say and do what.

(fyi, Bill Nye is a child's actor)

Bill Nye, Science Guy. His latest foray into television (or netflix in this case) wasn't even thinly veiled political nonsense. Between this and that woman's talking vagina I think his career is done.

 

[Kesa]

Whilst I agree with the concerns of this article and further strongly argue against allowing children to transition (there are multiple biological reasons why this is a bad idea, not least of which is that puberty blockers at that age would render them sterile, it would also ironically stop a male to female tranny from ever being able to fully transition as the realignment surgery requires fully formed genitals to form the basis of the new set... ), you are on very shakey ground in the accusation of paedophilia and sexual exploitation.

The blanket accusation of all Democrats being sick human beings is no more valid than pinning the crimes of various Christian sects on the necks of Republicans. This stuff is coming from a very specific subset within the extreme authoritarian left, with the vast majority on both the left and right asking wtf they think they're playing at.

The best way to change the genitals is to never have them grow in the wrong designation in the first place. For a successful transition to the opposite gender requires hormonal treatment at a very young age otherwise they will adopt the physical characteristics of their unwanted gender. For example - different shaped jaw, shoulders, hips, etc. Too old and you will end up looking like rambo with a wig and lipstick. Ideally the person should be prepubescent so they need to be identified early so they can be put on hormones asap.

 

[Kesa]

You really don't think it is adult sexual thoughts towards children driving this? Why is almost their entire focus on little children and not adults?

(fyi, Bill Nye is a child's actor)

If i saw this as a kid i would be confused about its relevance. I think only adults understand this. They are fighting a battle children never asked for.

 

[the_leander]

The best way to change the genitals is to never have them grow in the wrong designation in the first place.

In order to make a vagina in a transition surgery, the penis is essentially turned inside out. If it hasn't developed fully or at all beyond prepubesence the resulting vagina will never have the depth to accept a normal sized penis thus making sex impossible. Even with a full sized penis to begin with it will still require upto 12 months to further stretch out. And this all assumes that the surgery is a success, which is by no means guaranteed.

For a successful transition to the opposite gender requires hormonal treatment at a very young age otherwise they will adopt the physical characteristics of their unwanted gender.

That much is inevitable. A child cannot make this sort of decision as they are not fully developed physically or mentally. There are any number of things that may cause confusion with regard their sexuality, especially with the initial stages of puberty. Diagnosis of dysphoria is a difficult thing and is impossible under those conditions. To argue otherwise is not based on science or medicine but ideology.

Ideally the person should be prepubescent so they need to be identified early so they can be put on hormones asap.

The nature of puberty makes accurate, reliable diagnosis all but impossible and the side effects of getting it wrong are life long sterility and very possibly an inability to engage in intercourse at all, not to mention a whole host of mental health problems. It is deeply unethical to allow this. The people advocating this from within the trans community are curiously quiet about these points.

 

[Kesa]

We were looking at this from different angles. I was thinking of the outside appearance of physical gender traits and not the genitals. But you're right.

In an ideal world we could identify and remedy kids who are in the wrong gender before they are born but society has always put people into binary genders and disregards everything else. This make identifying these problem gender kids impossible. Now that the progressives have moved in we have gone to the other extreme. This should be a learning experience and we should strive to meet a balance between the 2.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

And then someone goes into anaphylactic shock and we suddenly realise that nuts are just wrong!

 

[the_leander]

society has always put people into binary genders and disregards everything else. This make identifying these problem gender kids impossible.

There are two genders. There are people of one gender who have drives more usually associated with the other and those whose drives and likes don't really conform to either, but gender is a binary. It may express itself slightly differently from one culture to the other, but there is a large overlap in pretty much all of them in terms of behaviours. To argue against this is to literally erase Transexuality and indeed, dysphoria. The whole demisexual genderqueer movement is fashionable nonsense developed by middle and upper middle class teens to earn themselves oppression points and be totally unique. The concept of a spectrum of genders has precisely zero scientific basis.

I get where you're coming from, and it's a good place, but there is so much badly thought out, frankly harmful nonsense coming from various advocacy groups that you have to really work hard to parse through it all. If we were to take for instance, the suggestion I've seen from some hard core trans advocates that we give puberty blockers to all children just in case, we would end up sterilising an entire generation.

 

[Kesa]

And then someone goes into anaphylactic shock and we suddenly realise that nuts are just wrong!

Maybe we could compromise and just go with the one?

 

[Kesa]

The spectrum makes sense to me with rambo and barbie on opposite sides to each other with everyone else sitting anywhere in-between. I agree that maybe certain groups are overthinking the gender classification though because it is just so confusing. But i also believe we need a more sophisticated classification than yes/no.

 

[redrumloa]

The spectrum makes sense to me with rambo and barbie on opposite sides to each other with everyone else sitting anywhere in-between. I agree that maybe certain groups are overthinking the gender classification though because it is just so confusing. But i also believe we need a more sophisticated classification than yes/no.

You are confusing gender with sexuality. Gender is binary, it is proven science that no one can argue. Gender is based on chromosomes and there are only 2 options.