Socialists win Greece

Good luck to them. Not sure either party has what it takes to fix Greece's problems right now, although I suspect Pasok might make things worse. They plan to throw around a massive stimulus package. Sounds good in theory, but Greece is strapped for cash and most Greeks won't like extra taxes (and don't even think of touching their fat pensions). Also, since Pasok is unlikely to do much about corruption, I expect most of those stimulus dollars to line pockets. Greece has had a hard time paying back the 2004 Olympics, this is only gonna add to that burden. But who knows, they may pull it off as they at least have the support from the unions. That should at least buy them some time before they strike/riot again. I kinda lost support for Pasok when they poured fuel on the anarchist flames last winter. But I guess the strategy of burning Athens to gain her support worked - Only in Greece.

Perhaps relations with the US will improve now: George Papandreou was born in Minneapolis and attended school in Toronto and Harvard (amongst others). Could he have been Obama's classmate?
 
So who wants to wager that it's gonna be a summer of protests and riots in Athens this summer?

Greece's PM vows to slash huge government deficit
Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou has said he will "take any necessary measures" to reduce Greece's deficit.

His comments came as thousands of Greeks demonstrated against cost-cutting measures during a national public sector strike.
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Seems he's making some bold moves but I have a feeling the crack down on tax evaders will go as well as the smoking ban. Greeks are very good at ignoring laws. Greeks definitely understand what personal liberty is, and they certainly know all the tricks for evading taxes but none of them see the irony of their constantly increasing demand of government subsidies, grants and jobs (I think half of the Greek workforce is on the government payroll). I hope I'm wrong here, but I have my doubts they'll pull it off. Anyone else following this?
 
Glaucus said:
So who wants to wager that it's gonna be a summer of protests and riots in Athens this summer?
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I hope the strikers break the Bundesbank.
 
Any particular reason? And if the strikers do break the bank, chances are they'll break a lot more with it, in particular Greece itself. Unless you just mean to burn down a few of their buildings, which is of course likely, assuming they have any in Greece.
 
Glaucus said:
Any particular reason? And if the strikers do break the bank, chances are they'll break a lot more with it, in particular Greece itself.
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Because the Euro is poorly structured. The Bundesbank needs to rethink how the Euro is supposed to benefit the region or it has to break.
 
Got any details? How does it need to be structured? I really have no idea.
 
Glaucus said:
Got any details? How does it need to be structured? I really have no idea.
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Here's the basic problem. Once everyone is on the same money regions lose the flexibility of valuing the money and the money doesn't adapt to local conditions. When a country has its own currency it can trade with other currencies in international currencies depending on its reserves and it conducts internal business in its own currency - this gives a fair amount of flexibility AND stability as various countries strengthen and weaken with respect to each other over time.

Once countries give up their own currencies and trade internally and externally in a common currency they no longer have any control over internal and external pricing. They also lose control over things like interest rate and other monetary levers because they are contracted to follow the lead of a central bank so as to protect the value of the currency overall. Regions who are uncompetitive cannot devalue their currency and therefore be cheaper for their neighbours to buy from.

When a single large country has a currency the same sorts of things happen internally in the country but because it IS a single country then the government still has the choice to move money around (like transfer payments in Canada and I'm sure similar things happen in US states), but between countries this mechanism is missing.

This bloomberg article points the finger in a slightly different direction but from the same root cause : one currency - lots of separate economic systems.

RT points at Goldman Sachs and that wouldn't be so crazy since the US has been looking to weaken the Euro as a major competitor to the US dollar (and dollar hegemony) and it seems pretty clear these days that Goldman Sachs is an arm of the government.

Ah, but why did they undermine the US economy too? Maybe they are just blood sucking vampires taking advantage of anything with a pulse.
 
The Future Is Greek

Here's an article that basically says "it can happen here", in regards to what happened to Greece. It also gives us a nice little run down of why Greece is in the state that it's in:

For those who haven't followed this saga, let me reassure you that the story is quite straightforward: Greece is bankrupt. And although Greece's bankruptcy is headline news this week—Greece's weak finances threaten the stability of the euro, the common European currency—the truth is that Greece has been bankrupt for years. Its budget deficit in 2009 was 12.7 percent of GDP. Overall debt was 113.4 percent of GDP. Those are not figures that can be achieved overnight.

Some of Greece's economic problems are highly specific. The country has an unusually old-fashioned legal system, a bureaucracy straight out of a Kafka novel, and a byzantine system of regulation worse even than our own. The Wall Street Journal points out that—extraordinarily—Greece, practically alone among developed economies, does not have a centralized and computerized land registry, which means, for example, that farmers can surreptitiously cultivate public land and eventually become de facto owners. By European standards, Greece also has an exceptionally closed economy. Barriers to doing business, both legal and informal, are very high, which is part of why Greece has one of the world's lowest levels of foreign investment.

More to the point, Greece has borne all these burdens for a long, long time. Yet nothing has been done, because the country's deeply partisan political system is totally paralyzed. Try to carry out any social security reform in Greece—raise the pension age, stop early retirements—and watch what happens: Mass rioting followed the passage of a pension reform bill in 2008, and the government became so unpopular it lost the next election. The land registry cannot be modernized, because those who possess land illegally will fight back. The barriers to investment cannot be lowered, because business lobbies are more powerful than politicians.
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I've always felt the Greece's problems are entirely Greek made, and the fact that most Greeks love to point the finger at others and shout out conspiracy theories only re-enforces that belief. Without paying attention to the real cause of the problems the likelihood that they'll fix any of them is pretty much nil.

And btw, if you're wondering what that sign in the photo says:
100216_For_GreeceTN.jpg


Den Plirono - I'm not paying. Well, they never paid before, why start now?
 
Glaucus said:
The Future Is Greek

Here's an article that basically says "it can happen here", in regards to what happened to Greece. It also gives us a nice little run down of why Greece is in the state that it's in:
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"It" cannot happen here, on the other hand "it" has already happened here. But there are more than one "it".

In terms of the fact that the rich have stolen the productive economy, yes, we have that here. The score keeping system that is supposed to make it possible to keep track of who owes what to whom has been gamed by the haves to provide them with a life of leisure on the labour of the lower classes.

In terms of what we can do about it versus what they can do about it, we have our own national currency that we don't have to ask other permission for to rework th system. Greece is no longer sovereign. It cannot fix its economy in its own interest, it must fix it in the interests of "the Union" which means that they basically become a slave labour pool for Europe, ultimately. There will be no "austerity" for the upper classes. Austerity measures are always aimed at the ruled, never the rulers.

The fact that Greece is virtually ungovernable is a sign of a free society. It is not a negative thing in and of itself. The article you quote from is written from a typical elitist ruling class perspective. The welfare of the people does not depend on whether or not they have a king. The rulers in Europe WANT to be able to rule the Greeks but their proxy "rulers" are ineffective. Now "bank rule" is being applied to break them. There is nothing that says that the Greek "people" actually owe this money. If Goldman IS involved in a scam to hide debt and make the problem worse I'm sure the rulers in Europe are not overly upset because it gives then the leverage they have been wanting. But if the elites of Greece conspired with the elites of Goldman and world finance, then it is their debt and not the debt of the people.

Is Greece really bankrupt? Only if you measure such things by artifices such as balance sheets denominated in Euros. That is a human construct. You can measure the length of a stick in inches or centimetres but the stick doesn't change.

Greece is still full of people who do work and produce food and goods. If they had control over their currency they could re-jig the play book to keep all these services working. They are prevented from doing so

I hope the Greek people are not as gullible as the people throughout most of the Western world. Their freedom is not granted by the elites, is not given them by the generosity of rulers, it is what they can take for themselves FROM their rulers.

Good luck to them.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
In terms of what we can do about it versus what they can do about it, we have our own national currency that we don't have to ask other permission for to rework th system. Greece is no longer sovereign. It cannot fix its economy in its own interest, it must fix it in the interests of "the Union" which means that they basically become a slave labour pool for Europe, ultimately. There will be no "austerity" for the upper classes. Austerity measures are always aimed at the ruled, never the rulers.
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If in the recent past Greece had a productive economy I might see your point, but Greece has been a poor nation for centuries. It got into the EU by deception (it's finances were never good enough to get in, so they fudged the numbers) and it placed the EU in jeopardy because of deception (it kept fudging more and more until it just couldn't any longer). Now I know you'd love to blame just the ruling class as it's a convenient argument for you, but the reality is that it's a cultural thing. All Greeks think their geniuses and they think they can outsmart everyone else. For them to pay taxes is to admit they're a fool, yet it's considered smart to rip off dumb tourists and there's nothing at all dumb with demanding more government subsidies or jobs. Good luck getting treatment at a Greek government hospital unless you're willing to slip the doctor an envelop full of cash (no cheques please). Want a driver's license? Don't waste your time taking a test, just pay for it in cash and you're good to go. I personally know someone who lived and worked in Athens for well over 15 years as an illegal just to evade taxes - no record of him exists in Greece as he was born in Montreal and now lives here in Winnipeg because (get this) he's fed up with corrupt Greeks. And what the article said about Greeks taking what ever land they want for their own is absolutely true. And those forest fires every summer are set not by those who love fire or foreign agents, but by those who want to develop land - anyone care to wager what the overall effect on the economy this has? They practically wiped out the Kalamata olive trees last year, which is a major export for Greece. Well done! Or anyone care to guess what Greece will lose in tourism from all the riots that should expect to see in the foreseeable future? And last but not at all least, most Greeks who were smart enough or rich enough to leave Greece in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s left Greece. This of course created a massive brain and wealth drain on the nation that needed those types of people badly. If this crisis turns out to be as catastrophic as some predict, that will all start all over again. It's a damn good thing Greek food is so darned tasty to everyone else otherwise all those Greek ex-pats would have had nothing else to do.

In the US it may be how much money you have in your bank account that opens doors for you in life, but in Greece it's who you know. Albert Einstein would not get a job as a physicist without the right connections in Greece. Not to mention every Greek that could found a way to take their slice of the Athens Olympics. Why do you think everything got built in the last few months before the opening ceremonies? Because nothing got done without palms being greased, no one would build a thing without making sure their salary was bumped up nicely first. They held out until the government realized that the Olympics were in jeopardy and paid them whatever they wanted. And people think it was because Greeks are dumb or lazy, no, it was because Greeks have a criminal mind.

The fact that Greece is virtually ungovernable is a sign of a free society. It is not a negative thing in and of itself.
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There must be a balance between the government rule of law and individual freedom. With that I agree. I also agree that Greece is mostly a free society, which is why the riots were allowed to go on as they did and the police did so little about it (admit it, if we saw riots like that anywhere here in NA, or most parts of Europe even, the police would have clamped down on them hard, yet Greeks cry about police brutality while they're busy torching their own city - give me a break). Greece is almost in anarchy without anyone caring about rules. And not just taxes, everything. Try driving on the streets in Greece and then tell me what you think about ungovernable places. I have cousins dead and cousins orphaned from the nut job drivers there. Some times you need to enact laws that are unpopular. The smoking ban that was attempted last year is an absolute joke and is an example of the power of the tobacco lobby that exists in Greece. Yes, let's be free of government rule so we can all die of cancer together while making the tobacco companies filthy rich. That's Greece in a nutshell.

Is Greece really bankrupt? Only if you measure such things by artifices such as balance sheets denominated in Euros. That is a human construct. You can measure the length of a stick in inches or centimetres but the stick doesn't change.
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They'd love you in Greece, home of philosophers. Philosophy is cheap, Greece isn't in a position to start lecturing anyone on economics. Greece has serious problems and is surrounded by enemies. Ever notice what Greece pays for it's military? It's huge, and they're buying more frigates as we speak. Greece could choose to sell of it's military hardware and downsize, but then you should also ask me how many Greeks would be willing to see more of their land owned by Turks.

Greece is still full of people who do work and produce food and goods. If they had control over their currency they could re-jig the play book to keep all these services working. They are prevented from doing so
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Greece is full of cheaters. Did you not notice the fiasco at their own Olympics with Greek Athletes using banned substances? What a disgrace but hardly surprising. You talk as if the very few corrupt Greeks managed to steal control of a nation of saints, but far from it. Fact is the nation as a whole, not just the government, but every citizen in Greece needs a good boot to the head.
 
Not that I think there's much to this, but it's the sort of thing I'd expect you to find interesting:
Spanish intelligence agents probing debt 'attacks'

SPAIN'S intelligence services are investigating the role of investors and media in debt market turbulence over the last few weeks, a Spanish newspaper has reported.

Citing unnamed sources, Spanish newspaper El Pais said the National Intelligence Centre was looking into "speculative attacks" on Spain following the Greek debt crisis.

"The (CNI's) Economic Intelligence division...is investigating whether investors' attacks and the aggressiveness of some Anglo-Saxon media are driven by market forces and challenges facing the Spanish economy, or whether there is something more behind this campaign," El Pais said.
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Lovely long reply. I will get to it but just had to make a short comment on this:
Glaucus said:
Now I know you'd love to blame just the ruling class as it's a convenient argument for you,
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They do tend to be the ones ruling, so they often have a good share of blame to shoulder.
When the dairy farm goes under because it can't manage it's debts to the bank you can blame the cows but remember that the cows didn't make those promises to the bank. The farmer did.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Lovely long reply. I will get to it but just had to make a short comment on this:
Glaucus said:
Now I know you'd love to blame just the ruling class as it's a convenient argument for you,
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They do tend to be the ones ruling, so they often have a good share of blame to shoulder.
When the dairy farm goes under because it can't manage it's debts to the bank you can blame the cows but remember that the cows didn't make those promises to the bank. The farmer did.
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Yes, lots of rambling on my part, but the point I was trying to make is that although the Greek leaders are corrupt, they are corrupt leaders of a corrupt nation. Greece does need proper leadership, but no one could lead Greece out of it's mess without strong help of the people. If you were elected Prime Minster of Greece tomorrow you'd have a hell of a time getting anything done - and that's assuming you learned how to speak Greek fluently in 24hrs. :-) Like the article pointed out, Greeks will fight it tooth and nail and they aren't scared to riot or cause immeasurable amounts of damage to the country to get their way. This makes the leaders scared of the people, which you could argue is good, but it can be bad when the government needs to fix things. Again, the smoking ban is a great example where the government bans smoking to appease some groups, yet manages to divert the wrath of the Tobacco lobby by simply not enforcing it.
 
How productive can one be when your own staff prevent you from getting into your office?

Conservatives propose stimulus measures; striking officials prevent Papaconstantinou reaching office

New Democracy attempted to steal a march on PASOK yesterday by announcing a set of proposals designed to aid the recovery of Greece’s economy, as it emerged that Finance Minister Giorgos Papaconstantinou, who is spearheading the effort to get the country’s public finances back into shape, has been locked out of his office this week by protesting civil servants.

The conservatives presented a package of 23 measures they believe would help revive the economy and that the government should adopt immediately.

The suggestions include asking the European Union to allow Greece to defer for a few years its contributions to projects that are co-financed by Athens and Brussels. ND also encouraged the government to sign up to as many public-private partnerships as possible so that the country can make maximum use of the right to borrow from the European Investment Bank.

The opposition party proposed that red tape be slashed so it is easier for outsiders to invest in Greece and for Greeks to start their own businesses. ND’s package also contains ideas about how to stimulate the tourism and construction sectors – two driving forces of the Greek economy.

Party spokesman Panos Panayiotopoulos justified an apparent change in tack by ND, which had until this week been broadly supportive of PASOK’s fiscal measures.

“Consensus does not mean providing a blank check,” he said. “When [ND leader] Antonis Samaras thinks that the government’s decisions do not help the Greek economy out of the crisis, then he will be highly critical.”

Meanwhile, it emerged that protesting Finance Ministry officials have been blocking the entrance to the building that houses the ministry for the past few days, preventing Papaconstantinou and other top officials from getting to their offices.

The minister has been forced to temporarily relocate to another building in central Athens that houses tax and customs officials. However, as this latter group yesterday agreed to extend their strike into next week, there are fears that access to this building will also be blocked.
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It's the good old "Fix all my problems but don't expect me to help you, and in fact I may do my best to sabotage you" all over again.
 
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