Socialists win Greece

[Glaucus]

This also gives the unions a big bat to swing at the government and they've used it very effectively over the years.

This is a good thing Mike.

I obviously didn't elaborate on this enough. You're assuming that the unions are acting on the best interests of the people. First of all, the unions in Greece represent 2 groups of people 1) union members and 2) affiliates. Only the card carrying members get to vote who'll be the union president, however everyone represented by the union does what the union tells them to. So right away we see it's not democratic. The daily online Greek newspaper I read has continuously written article after article against the massive strikes in Athens as they believe them to only make a bad situation worse (tens of thousands of tourist bookings have been canceled due to the riots on the front pages world wide). And yet, I also see notices that tomorrow there will be no news as they're going on strike (figuratively speaking, I don't know when they're next going on strike but they have went on strike a few times in the past several months). Again, we can see how the unions are not really taking into account what the people they represent actually want. So I can't say that I'm convinced that the unions have a more direct representation.

I know where you're coming from, but unions in North America are not like what unions are like in Greece. In Greece the unions have significantly more power and as I'm sure you can agree with, power does corrupt. To say the union leaders are white nights is a gross misrepresentation of the situation in Greece. They are just as bad as the politicians.

TV is propaganda.

True, and Greek TV is worse then Fox News at times. But I get them from the Greek internet forums as well, not to mention relatives.

The scams by the common people are not the biggest problem because the common people don't control the majority of the money. The wealthy scammers cause the majority of the damage so those are the ones to go after first - the banks for a start.

From what I've been reading they're focusing mostly on the big fish. A Greek owner of a shipping company was found to owe over 40 million Euros in back taxes. They also targeted industries: doctors, lawyers, etc. As for the Greek banks, I'm not sure what to say about them except that no Greek bank was bailed out recently so they're probably not as dirty as other national banks.

 

[Glaucus]

Another big fish: Mantelis faces criminal charges

Anastasios Mantelis, a former transport minister under the previous PASOK government who earlier this week admitted to accepting payments from the Greek branch of German electronics giant Siemens, was arrested and charged with money laundering yesterday.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Dear Greece,

Here is some expert advice.

Leave the Euro.
Convert your Euro debt unilaterally to drachmas.
Let the drachmas devalue.

I.e. get control back over internal vs external pricing and let the investors suffer the risk they took on.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Pharma companies threaten to cut off Greece.

Yes, it's kind of like blackmail but probably more blackfail. We would rathre get zero dollars than accept what you are willing to pay (because we wouldn't want everyone to realize that they can get better prices). But it's obviously already too late. Furthermore it's a golden opportunity for new suppliers (maybe from places like China) to step in with generics and set an even worse example. Doing very well without rippoff pricing of proprietary pharmaceuticals. The gauntlet has been thrown down.

 

[Glaucus]

Dear Greece,

Here is some expert advice.

Leave the Euro.
Convert your Euro debt unilaterally to drachmas.
Let the drachmas devalue.

I.e. get control back over internal vs external pricing and let the investors suffer the risk they took on.

Speculation at work. First off, the Brits are in no position to give anyone economic advice. Second, why should any Euro member trust the Brits at all, the Brits would love nothing more then to see the Euro fail. Third, like the article mentioned, if Greece leaves the Euro there's a good chance others will, with the plan to devalue their own currency. If that happens, the advantage of devaluing your own currency will be diminished plus the entire EU will be in an economic slump much worse then this - which usually results in lower tourism. If the Euro survives then Greece would have reduced buying power when importing from the Euro - all while being in a state of default.

There are other factors too. Like I said before, nationalist movements are gaining strength. A default situation would likely have two effects: 1) drive many Greeks away like in decades past, and 2) encourage immigration from poorer nations like from Albania or the Middle East as they'd be willing to work for next to nothing while getting an opportunity to enter the EU. This is a great way to start a civil war as there is great tension between Christians and Muslims in Greece. There were huge riots in the streets of Athens between Muslims and Greeks last year, although they weren't as well televised here in NA. Aside from the obvious catastrophe from the armed conflicts, Greece would also suffer economically due to the sensitivity of the tourism industry. This would in effect turn Greece into the next Yugoslavia. I have hard time understanding how that's a good thing. Unless you're British and would like to see the Euro and EU fail.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Third, like the article mentioned, if Greece leaves the Euro there's a good chance others will, with the plan to devalue their own currency. If that happens, the advantage of devaluing your own currency will be diminished ...

A devalued currency has great advantages. While it makes imports more expensive it makes local wages cheaper without the people getting the lowered wages noticing much - because they can still trade internally at the same nominal values. I buy my spanakopita from Costa's for 10 drachma before devaluation - I buy it for 10 drachma after devaluation provided all ingredients are local. It means more local to local commerce and less expensive imports from abroad. Yes, it's bad for the rest of Europe because they have to adjust their prices now and earn less profits on their exports and it's "bad" for Greece because they can't wallow in all those foreign goods but the "bad" isn't really bad.

There are other factors too. Like I said before, nationalist movements are gaining strength. A default situation would likely have two effects: 1) drive many Greeks away like in decades past, and 2) encourage immigration from poorer nations like from Albania or the Middle East as they'd be willing to work for next to nothing while getting an opportunity to enter the EU.

That is what austerity will do too. Only austerity will continue to suck the life out of Greece and into the Bundesbank.

 

[Glaucus]

Fluffy, according to the wikiGreece exports around $18.6 billion a year. It imports around $61 billion. It would be on the wrong side of that equation. The more it would devalue it's currency the less it would get for it's exports (mostly agriculture and foods like fish, cheese, wine and ouzo, plus some metals and marble) and the more it would pay for it's imports. What you suggest would only make sense if Greece could somehow ramp up production to make it all back on volume sales, but Greece simply doesn't have that capacity as it's a very small country.

Greece was setting itself up to be the major financial player in the region. Greek banks dominate the Balkans and have been buying up market share in Turkey aggressively. Leaving the Euro may reverse all that. Personally, I think Greece's future is better of as a financial center then that of a tourist destination competing with Turkey and Egypt for low-cost accommodations.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Fluffy, according to the wikiGreece exports around $18.6 billion a year. It imports around $61 billion. It would be on the wrong side of that equation. The more it would devalue it's currency the less it would get for it's exports (mostly agriculture and foods like fish, cheese, wine and ouzo, plus some metals and marble) and the more it would pay for it's imports.

No, it would get the same or more for its exports in its own currency while still being a better deal for those that are buying. It would not be able to import at the levels it does now because it would not be able to back up its currency the way the Bundesbank backs up the Euro. They would have to be able to satisfy those demands from internal industries where the wages demanded by workers would be measured against the local currency. The transition would be hard but there would be two net benefits. The debts would be partially written off (thus less) and the imports would naturally be curtailed.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Greece was setting itself up to be the major financial player in the region. Greek banks dominate the Balkans and have been buying up market share in Turkey aggressively.

When you say "Greece" you mean a few Greeks. In that sense Greece would simply be following Iceland where a few bankers strung everyone along with a story about how nobody was going to need to work anymore because they could make all the income they needed by handling other peoples' money. It was BS in Iceland and it's BS for Greece. It is also what is killing the world economy - the idea that if everyone in the world just had enough money and good investment vehicles then nobody would have to work because of the miracle of compound interest.

 

[Glaucus]

If someone had something important and intelligent to say, would it not make sense to say it to as many people as possible? Apparently not if you're a Greek union boss where all that matters is conformity.

The public has a right to the news

Kathimerini, like every other daily newspaper in the country, will be unable to inform its readers as it should today of the outcome of a crucial late-night vote in Parliament yesterday on the government’s social security reform bill. It will also not be in circulation tomorrow to cover news of the protest rallies held in Athens and around Greece.

The reason why Kathimerini and other newspapers will not be able to perform their duty is the irrational insistence of the labor groups representing journalists to strike at the same time as other sectors when these sectors announce a general strike.

The result of this policy is that citizens are not informed about very important developments but also that the protest movements of workers do not receive any significant coverage.

This kind of policy has no place in this day and age. It is pointless and serves no purpose other than entertaining the foibles of certain unionists and putting those above the public’s right to be informed by the country’s press.

And all this time I thought the unions were there to represent their member's interests. Guess I was wrong.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

And all this time I thought the unions were there to represent their member's interests. Guess I was wrong.

Yes, they were. I always found it odd that media workers would strike when they had much better and more effective options available to them. They could, for example, start producing their own news and running production as normal but with their own content. However, they are only allowed to strike, so this is meekly what they do.

The irony is that they didn't get the right to strike by obeying the law. They fought for the right to strike, or rather they had illegal strikes that hurt owners badly enough until they won concessions. When unions got a legal right to strike it seems to have been the beginning of the end - making them soft and locking them into a strategy while the owners could move around them.

However, while it may seem counter-productive, a sustained media strike would allow other (uncontrolled) information sources to start filling the void. There IS the internet, you know (at least for now).

 

[Glaucus]

Interesting response. When I say Greek unions are powerful and influential you tell me that this is good because they provide a more direct form of representation then politicians. When I demonstrate that this is not always the case and that there are some union members that strongly disagree with the union and are forced to strike against their will, you tell me that these disagreeable members are simply spineless and that perhaps their entire profession could (or maybe should?) be made obsolete. Does anyone else see a trend here?

As for your comment about uncontrolled information sources, all information sources are controlled and biased. I hope you don't think the Real News Network is somehow above all that just because they run off donations. They are owned by those who donate and they cater to their views just as Fox caters to the conservative viewers.

 

[Robert]

As for your comment about uncontrolled information sources, all information sources are controlled and biased. I hope you don't think the Real News Network is somehow above all that just because they run off donations. They are owned by those who donate and they cater to their views just as Fox caters to the conservative viewers.

Please tell me you are not equating the two?
Surely you see the major hole in that comparison?

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

As for your comment about uncontrolled information sources, all information sources are controlled and biased.

Each information source is biased. If there are very many small information organizations then, in aggregate, they are uncontrolled. When information organs become large (dominant) and hierarchical the biases are stronger because counterbalancing information/bias is filtered out. This is what media consolidation is all about. The fewer independent sources there are the more easily the message can be controlled.

The more easily the message can be controlled by the ownership of these conglomerates and the more "brains" they can deliver to someone with a message the more useful they become to powerful people with a message and the more influential they become with less powerful people who need help from (don't want to be hurt by) a message.

Keep your slaves reading the bible and away from the law books and you will imbue them with a healthy "your master was chosen by God" and "you'll get your 72 virgins ... I mean, riches and happiness after you die" attitude instead of "confusing for unsophisticated minds" ideas like "rights".

Miley Cyrus versus Financial Fraud, Britney Spears bald head versus Office of Special Plans - etc. Look at the guys in black burning police cars versus look at the lack of police response, look at the mass roundup of peaceful protesters and innocent bystanders, look at the hundreds held for just slightly shy of the maximum amount of allowable time (24hrs) that they can be held without charges and then released (without charges) when summit is over, look at the demand that people taken into custody and handled roughly be made, under duress, to waive their exercise their RIGHT to peaceful protest in the future, look at trying to find out where all the actual money went.