Syria

Robert said:
I find myself morbidly fascinated by your (apparent) ongoing transformation.
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Ten years of Harper. The media has changed and our strategic alliance has always been more towards the US but these days we are complete toadies for the neo-con/interventionist block. There's been a change of tone in the country and I think Mike has just been dragged along with it, though he's probably dragging his heels a little bit.
 
@Mike:

Thanks for giving a considered answer. :pint:
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
It's a good red line for a couple of reasons. One is that it horrifies people. Another reason is that it has already been field tested and approved as a good propaganda "reason" for war. A third reason is that is relatively easy to set up. (Thank you wayback machine for saving this page).
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That's pretty damning. Is there any other source for it?
I ask mainly because the Daily Mail has a reputation for sensationalist horsefeathers and if it's the only visible source for something it's wise to it take with a pinch of salt.

Actually, I've just found this, which backs up the Mail:
http://www.cyberwarnews.info/reports/a-look-into-the-britam-defence-data-leak-files/

Phil
We’ve got a new offer. It’s about Syria again. Qataris propose an attractive deal and swear that the idea is approved by Washington.
We’ll have to deliver a CW to Homs, a Soviet origin g-shell from Libya similar to those that Assad should have.
They want us to deploy our Ukrainian personnel that should speak Russian and make a video record.
Frankly, I don’t think it’s a good idea but the sums proposed are enormous. Your opinion?
Kind regards
David
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Still not able to completely confirm the veracity of it but if true, that should be the real story.
 
Robert said:
That's pretty damning. Is there any other source for it?
I ask mainly because the Daily Mail has a reputation for sensationalist horsefeathers and if it's the only visible source for something it's wise to it take with a pinch of salt.

Actually, I've just found this, which backs up the Mail:
http://www.cyberwarnews.info/reports/a-look-into-the-britam-defence-data-leak-files/



Still not able to completely confirm the veracity of it but if true, that should be the real story.
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I have to say it seems bogus, possibly even intentionally planted by the FSB. What's in that article would be higher security than what Bradly Manning had access to, we're talking CIA operational information of the highest security level. None of that would be sent by email to anyone by anyone. From another site:

We were hacked on last Wednesday, Thursday from our e-mails hosted on a public commercial webhosting domain.
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Right, the most top secret CIA operational level information would just be bouncing around in emails on the regular internet. Not very likely.

Also, if you google "britam hacked" you'll note almost all the news sites carrying it are from Russia, Daily Mail or Alex Jones. Not very convincing.

And one other thing: Britam Defence, David Goulding and Philip Doughty

Goulding, the Business Development Director of Britam Defence, to company founder, Philip Doughty. The email had been published on the internet after Britam’s computer system was illegally hacked in Singapore. It referred to a proposal that Britam would deliver chemical weapons to Syria for enormous financial reward and suggested that the directors were willing to consider the illegal proposal.
We now accept that email was fabricated and acknowledge there is no truth in any suggestion that Britam or its directors were willing to consider taking part in such a plot, which may have led to an atrocity.
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Of course, that doesn't prove anything, but neither does the original claim either. Those who want to believe there's a CIA plot will believe so, but really, there's no real solid evidence that there is.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Ten years of Harper. The media has changed and our strategic alliance has always been more towards the US but these days we are complete toadies for the neo-con/interventionist block. There's been a change of tone in the country and I think Mike has just been dragged along with it, though he's probably dragging his heels a little bit.
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Yes, it feels like 10 years of Harper as PM but really it's only been five. Overall I still think most Canadians oppose Harper and he had less than 40% of the vote in the last election. The fact is that the Canadian electoral system is broken as it's too simple to manipulate and a split vote amongst similar ideological parties often leads to the polar opposite getting elected. I really don't think most Canadians are drinking Harper's cool aid it's just that those who oppose Harper can't all agree on who'd make a better alternative. In fact I'd say that we're starting to see cracks in Fortress Harper and renewed interest in the Liberal Party under Trudeau. Oh, and for the record, I still hate Harper with a passion.

Also, I take issue with your tone on the matter. Why do you like to believe that everyone is so easily fooled by propaganda but you seem to somehow see through it all? It almost seems as you see yourself as a genius in a sea of fools. If someone doesn't agree with you it's because they're duped by the media. Quite possibly the reason they don't agree with you is that you've willingly poisoned your own mind with propaganda from foreign interests. It's become quite clear that you don't even bother to critically analyze what they feed you, you just assume they're telling the honest to goodness truth. I think most Canadians are smarter than that, all we need is a proper party to vote for.
 
Putin goes along with the G8 on Syria. I guess it's pretty easy to see which bits had to get added to bring Putin along.

  • Increase commitment to humanitarian aid.
  • "Maximize the diplomatic pressure" to bring all sides to the table as soon as possible.
  • Back a "transitional governing body" for Syria.
  • "Learn the lessons of Iraq" and maintain Syria's public institutions.
  • Work together to "rid Syria of terrorists and extremists" — a new commitment by the G8, Cameron said.
  • Condemn the use of chemical weapons "by anyone" in Syria, and allow for a UN probe, also new Cameron said.
  • Support a new non-sectarian government in Syria.
Suspect there may be a few ESL issues in there as far as Vlad is concerned.
Still, I wonder whether THIS happened before or after the agreement.
 
Glaucus said:
Yes, it feels like 10 years of Harper as PM but really it's only been five.
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Leader of the Conservative Party, 2003. Leader of the opposition, 2004. Prime Minister, 2006. Prime Minister with a majority, 2008. But that whole time he was hooked into the US "conservative" machine. He works for Koch and he is working to get Obama to approve the Keystone XL. He's hooked into all the money and media power and it's moved Canadian politics and media more toward the US "conservative" talking points. Even though he didn't get his Fox News North he still has buy in from most of the media owners in Canada and has been increasing the PMOs control of the public broadcaster. Our media, like the US, has become a monolithic echo chamber for the agenda of a few.
Overall I still think most Canadians oppose Harper and he had less than 40% of the vote in the last election. The fact is that the Canadian electoral system is broken as it's too simple to manipulate and a split vote amongst similar ideological parties often leads to the polar opposite getting elected.
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And there is significant manipulation of the party voting too, to try to get certain heads of party with certain sympathies. Justin sort of squeaked around that with star power. We shall see how he does. He's young and he's cute and attacks may just look mean against him, plus he doesn't have much history to attack. Of the three party heads I think he has the most Canadian agenda.
I really don't think most Canadians are drinking Harper's cool aid it's just that those who oppose Harper can't all agree on who'd make a better alternative.
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It's not actually Harper's cool aid - it's the cool aid of his owners and it just happens to be the cool aid that is being pumped through an "independent" media so that he can just echo it. The media doesn't just lead the populace, it leads the politicians. The media shines the light and tells you what it want you to know, doesn't tell you what it wishes to hide. The media lets you know what is the sensible way to see what it shows you and tells you what is the crazy way to see it. The media is owned by small number of people and if, as an editor, you don't know how to please your employer then you are not an editor. It's not even conspiracy, it's group think and business.
Also, I take issue with your tone on the matter. Why do you like to believe that everyone is so easily fooled by propaganda but you seem to somehow see through it all?
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Don't we all like to think that we can see through the propaganda? It's like the way we think we have good taste and we are a good judge of character. If we didn't believe that we' have to second guess ourselves all the time. Me? I do second guess myself all the time. It's pretty annoying.
It almost seems as you see yourself as a genius in a sea of fools.
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Sometimes, yes, except (depressingly) without the "genius" part. I do however spend far too much of my time searching and reading and I know that most people don't. I probably shouldn't as much as I do because it takes up almost all of my free time (and sometimes bit more). There is quite a lot of difference of opinion different emphasis on stories and facts in news around the world.
I think most Canadians are smarter than that, all we need is a proper party to vote for.
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That's almost irrelevant. If there was a proper party to vote for under the current media regime everyone would know them to be a loony, fringey party full of retards, commies and anti-semites.
 
Glaucus said:
Why do you like to believe that everyone is so easily fooled by propaganda but you seem to somehow see through it all?
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First of all, most people ARE pretty easily fooled. People are generally trusting and take most things at face value. I think this is not a bad thing if everyone would do the same as it leads to a great deal of efficiency and benefit to society as a whole. However, there is a certain percentage of people who, for one reason or another, don't feel allegiance to "society" as a whole but feel it only to themselves or to some subgroup or cause and they believe that the majority of open and trusting people are a bunch of simpletons to be taken advantage of. Propaganda works even IF you know it's propaganda but it works better if you don't know and it's unopposed.

You may think that you are immune (I'm sure you don't) but the DoD is pretty sure it works and they are even willing to bet they can figure out how it's working on you.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Putin goes along with the G8 on Syria. I guess it's pretty easy to see which bits had to get added to bring Putin along.

Increase commitment to humanitarian aid.
"Maximize the diplomatic pressure" to bring all sides to the table as soon as possible.
Back a "transitional governing body" for Syria.
"Learn the lessons of Iraq" and maintain Syria's public institutions.
Work together to "rid Syria of terrorists and extremists" — a new commitment by the G8, Cameron said.
Condemn the use of chemical weapons "by anyone" in Syria, and allow for a UN probe, also new Cameron said.
Support a new non-sectarian government in Syria.

Suspect there may be a few ESL issues in there as far as Vlad is concerned.
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Proof that the Western leaders are imbeciles. This was their chance to place some pressure on Putin and in the end they got the most vague statement that is not only meaningless but can be used against them. Putin can easily twist the meanings of every single point to not only justify Russian support of Assad but to also derail any attempts to help the official Syrian opposition. Yes, it's great that they are working to rid Syria of terrorists, but they should have said, rid Syria of al-Qaeda linked terrorists. What idiots. This is also evidence that the West isn't part of some long conspiracy to destabilize Syria as all their "efforts" would be mitigated greatly by this.

In fact, what I see is a bunch of over paid diplomats arguing over semantics and meaningless details while people are being killed daily. It's become clear that no one really cares about the Syrian people. Quite sickening.
 
In terms of whether I see economic and power CIA or US state interests at play in the world ahead of "humanitarian" or noble interests that would only make the US the same as every empire ever - they all speak about bringing peace, prosperity and "civilization" and they all conquer to exploit. It used to be much easier to say these things because the people you are telling these noble epithets too are too damned far away from the people you are killing to hear anything about what's going on. A lot of the soldiers you sent over to do the actual killing would die themselves and those that came back injured and talked would be dismissed as disgruntled, those that came back uninjured and telling of horrors would be called cowards (or worse). These days news can travel fast and management is trickier but perception management science has become better and so has the technology so it remains fairly easy to overload the populace with the "correct" perceptions and to paint anyone holding the "incorrect" perceptions as a deviant, idiot or enemy.

However, Wesley Clerk still said this:
Those countries again:
Iraq
Syria
Lebanon
Libya
Somalia
Sudan
Iran

That is an agenda. The order and timing may change with opportunity, but the general thrust (because presidents don't run the country) remains. There are other internal and external forces at play but when things happen in the countries that the US has stated policy positions on, it's not unreasonable to have suspicions and when you see how similar the destabilization campaign is to what the US has, for years, done in South America against governments too independent from US control, and how similar it is to other campaigns like the former Yugoslavia and Libya the whole situation is not that mysterious. There's a lot that cannot be controlled, there are always multiple parties trying to get their slice of the pie, things usually don't go according to plan but the general method is to start trouble, fan the flames, wait for the society to fall apart and then shore up a fortress or two and try to run the country from there (or rather, the important bits of the country like the oil fields and pipelines). Of course Russia and China have their own interests but Russia and China aren't starting civil wars around the world trying to pursue theirs. The US has world military supremacy and, as they say, when all you have is a hammer...
 
Glaucus said:
Proof that the Western leaders are imbeciles.
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That's why they were given to us to vote for.
This was their chance to place some pressure on Putin and in the end they got the most vague statement that is not only meaningless but can be used against them.
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Don't worry. I think Putin got a lot of pressure, he just happens to be a very strong character. In the end it comes down to "how many days and nights do you want to sit here to get this done". The G7 could have just moaned on about how "outside" Putin is, but in the end they needed to come away with an agreement more than he needed to agree to anything. As it is, it still heavily favours western interests and the fact of the matter is that most of the armed resistance is radical religious (and foreign) fighters. The local resistance is hugely peaceful and those that fight are not very good. Throw weapons at the legitimate opposition and they will just wend up becoming soft targets for the Al-Nusra to get more guns from.

Putin can easily twist the meanings of every single point to not only justify Russian support of Assad but to also derail any attempts to help the official Syrian opposition.
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The official opposition is not the legitimate opposition - it's just the opposition that "we" have agreed to recognize. It would be like Russia and China recognizing the Hell's Angels as the official opposition in Canada and seeing that they are persecuted, arming them to the teeth. Yes, it's crazy and we wouldn't fall for it, but Russians might.
Yes, it's great that they are working to rid Syria of terrorists, but they should have said, rid Syria of al-Qaeda linked terrorists.
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Would still mean CIA/Qatar/Saudi backed fighters.

What idiots. This is also evidence that the West isn't part of some long conspiracy to destabilize Syria as all their "efforts" would be mitigated greatly by this.
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Yeah, like if someone was trying to kill you but the cops stopped him then that would mean that he wasn't trying to kill you after all because circumstances got in the way of him being able to do it. Ultimately this agreement can be ignored by everyone. The US and Canada will still funnel money to the guys it wants to have fight Assad for them and Putin can keep blocking a UN no-fly zone.
 
Report: Syrian Women Face Detention, Torture

This is an article about how Syrian women have been mistreated by Assad's forces. However, it also gives us a glimpse into how the Syrian opposition gets it's support. Fluffy loves to spread Assad's lies that the violent opposition is not only responsible for this war but also operating on behalf of foreign interests. But very few sane people actually believe that crap thankfully.

In the early days of the Syrian revolution - before the protest movement became an armed insurrection - government forces were often reluctant to shoot female protesters during crackdowns. So some women formed human shields during demonstrations, hoping to protect the men behind them, as one 25-year-old activist from the province of Daraa recounts in a Human Rights Watch report published this week.
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It is hugely unlikely that al-Qaeda would use females in such a way or that Syrian females would risk their lives to protect foreign insurgents. Human shields are also rarely if ever used when both sides are armed. All evidence points to Assad cracking down violently on a peaceful opposition. I do not believe that any peaceful opposition would just sit and take that kind of treatment, especially in such a case where we have a minority oppressing a majority. In fact, I believe that if US government chose to put it's full power into a violent crackdown on African Americans instead of the slow but eventual civil rights legislation we would have seen an armed resistance in the US as well: Black Panthers on steroids times ten thousand at least. You oppress people they're gonna protest. You crack down on them and they will revolt. You open fire on them and they will fire back. It's not rocket science.

One Damascus activist, who goes by the nickname Alexia Jade, has been involved in media outreach and humanitarian aid since the revolution started. She says the situation has become more dangerous for women activists as the government has become clued in to their role. While some used to feel that they could pass more easily through government checkpoints, for example, Jade says that women travelling by car now receive heavy scrutiny.
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Here we see the machinery of the Syrian resistance logistics at work. Women (and I imagine children as well) would more easily slip through government checkpoints to deliver intel or supplies to the Syrian rebels. In others words, Syrians helping Syrians rid themselves of Assad. Anyone who likes to claim this is all about al-Qaeda or some other foreign player instigating the Syrian people against Assad is either clueless or intentionally misleading.
 
nobody thinks its all about al qaeda... it aint... they just looking for the future gratitude of another government, if this pans out for the rebels... and guess what? if they dont get that expected gratitude with the new government there will be yet more violence against that government... you're right about the it ain't rocket science... we've seen this tired story retold since the dawn of time... hope the syrian people have their antiquities stashed better than the iraqis did before we stepped in and "helped" them...
 
Sharia law is spreading in rebel held territories.
The "rebellion" is still very rural. Put that into western terms. If we were to have a revolution like it, it would mean the three Rs: religious red-necks with rifles. Imagine how we would feel if Russia and China were supporting such groups in the US.
 
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