Trayvon Martin Day celebration!

[cecilia]

I'm the boring person here who has never taken drugs

however, even I know that legal drugs proscribed by doctors are known to make some people nutty.

ever see those commercials where they tell you the name of some "wonder" drug and THEN they list all the symptoms you MIGHT have and they are all shitty.

 

[robert l. bentham]

I'm the boring person here who has never taken drugs

however, even I know that legal drugs proscribed by doctors are known to make some people nutty.

ever see those commercials where they tell you the name of some "wonder" drug and THEN they list all the symptoms you MIGHT have and they are all shitty.

exactly... and thats just the stuff they tell you... and ps i would never hold your lack of experimentation against you....

 

[cecilia]

and ps i would never hold your lack of experimentation against you....

that sounds like the beginning of a Groucho Marx joke.....

 

[metalman]

however, even I know that legal drugs proscribed by doctors are known to make some people nutty.

exactly... and thats just the stuff they tell you...

How often do you recommend your children take LSD?
at what age should they start?

i'd say first time at 16, then once a year afterwards until it was no longer needed (and you will know when you get there)... i used it way too much because i did so for recreational purposes and i was young and uninformed. it actually has remarkable properties therapeutically and an enormous amount of value in stemming the side effects of PTSD in particular... so there ya' go... unless you are over 50 already you will live to see it used clinically...

========================================
** LSD Adverse Effects **

CHROMOSOME DAMAGE.
LSD damages chromosomes. Cells with damaged chromosomes are potentially dangerous to their bearer, because they may establish cancerous cell lines, and are dangerous to unborn children,

ACUTE PANIC REACTIONS.
Acute panic reactions, depression, paranoia, and psychotic episodes occur that cannot easily be terminated. 1/2500 patients taking LSD during psychotherapy committed suicide; and 0.02% of normal subjects who took LSD experimentally experienced psychotic reactions of greater than 24 hours in duration.

FLASHBACKS.
In a study of 2256 Army enlisted men, 23% reported flashbacks from LSD

PROLONGED PSYCHOTIC REACTIONS
2/1000 patients who ingested LSD, suffer psychotic reactions lasting longer than 48 hours.

CEREBRAL DEFICIT.
permanent cerebral deficit in LSD users.
=======================================

looks like 2 people are suffering from "irrational risk association"
too bad lawyers haven't forced you to put warning labels on your water faucet

*** Warning Label for Water ***
potentially hazardous due to chemical or bacterial contamination
potentially hazardous due to dissolved minerals
potentially hazardous due to dissolved gases
Prolonged exposure to solid water has been shown to cause severe tissue damage.
Short exposures to gaseous water has been shown to cause severe skin burns and trauma.
Has been found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Death due to accidental inhalation, water interferes with breathing, even in small quantities. 3rd leading cause of death
Brain Damage or death due to excessive water ingestion (water intoxication) causing fatal disturbance in brain functions from electrolyte imbalance

If you observe symptoms of headache, personality changes, changes in behavior, confusion, irritability, and drowsiness. These are sometimes followed by difficulty breathing during exertion, muscle weakness, twitching, or cramping, nausea, vomiting, thirst, and a dulled ability to perceive and interpret sensory information. Consult a physician immediately, you may be exhibiting signs of water poisoning.
*** ***

 

[cecilia]

looks like 2 people are suffering from "irrational risk association"

pardon me, asshole, but when did I say LSD was "good" for you?

aside from a total lack of interest in drugs, one other reason I have never taken any is because I am fortunate enough to have always been reasonably healthy. And I don't wish to mess that up. I like my brain operating at 100% efficiency. But that's ME.
Use of drugs is really a person by person situation. And should be decided after consideration and thought. If a person has cancer and using some pot will help them eat (because some cancer treatments leave people with no appetite at all), then I certainly don't think I should get all puritan on them and insist it's "bad".

I personally don't think anyone should smoke cigarettes. In my opinion that is one of THE worse drugs ever. But if people want to slowly kill themselves that is their business. I'll tell them the facts and insist they don't smoke around me, but I'm not going to arrest them for smoking.

 

[metalman]

pardon me, asshole, but when did I say LSD was "good" for you?

Can you read or do you just look at the pretty pictures??

however, even I know that legal drugs proscribed by doctors are known to make some people nutty.

ever see those commercials where they tell you the name of some "wonder" drug and THEN they list all the symptoms you MIGHT have and they are all shitty.

that is an "irrational risk association"

the person quoted who says LSD is good was directly quoted as that is also making an "irrational risk association"

Do you plan to debate this by Argumentum ad Hominem ad Ininfitum or Argumentum de re?

 

[robert l. bentham]

========================================
** LSD Adverse Effects **

CHROMOSOME DAMAGE.
LSD damages chromosomes. Cells with damaged chromosomes are potentially dangerous to their bearer, because they may establish cancerous cell lines, and are dangerous to unborn children,

ACUTE PANIC REACTIONS.
Acute panic reactions, depression, paranoia, and psychotic episodes occur that cannot easily be terminated. 1/2500 patients taking LSD during psychotherapy committed suicide; and 0.02% of normal subjects who took LSD experimentally experienced psychotic reactions of greater than 24 hours in duration.

FLASHBACKS.
In a study of 2256 Army enlisted men, 23% reported flashbacks from LSD

PROLONGED PSYCHOTIC REACTIONS
2/1000 patients who ingested LSD, suffer psychotic reactions lasting longer than 48 hours.

CEREBRAL DEFICIT.
permanent cerebral deficit in LSD users.

actually... most clinicians have seen that study.... and recognize it for what it is... a good place to start but generally inconclusive.... it's "junk science" when you ask people to self report the cause of this or that and the army study asked each soldier to assign a cause for their "flashbacks"

"1/2500 patients taking LSD during psychotherapy committed suicide" ... wow! LSD saved 2499 of them... SWEET!! actually... that statistic means bupkis as well... at least in regards to making your point at any rate... 2500 people with severe mental health issues went to the doctor for "psychotherapy" and only one killed themselves... which by the way isn't attributed to the drug in the research but rather to the pressing problem burdening that already damaged soul. but my argument has never been that it is a panacea to all that ails humans, i just don't find it the rogue evil drug that you do based mostly on failed social constructs... if it is ur contention that its evil because it failed one patient then you win, at least until you look at some other statistics... so let's go with mr. easy target... our dear friend fluoxetene , AKA prozac

"The 1988 document indicated that 3.7 percent of patients attempted suicide while on the blockbuster drug, a rate more than 12 times that cited for any of four other commonly used antidepressants.
The document, which cited clinical trials of 14,198 patients on fluoxetine -- the generic name for Prozac -- also stated that 2.3 percent of users suffered psychotic depression while on the drug, more than double the next-highest rate of patients using another antidepressant.
In addition, the paper said that 1.6 percent of patients reported incidents of hostility -- more than double the rate reported by patients on any of four other commonly used antidepressants.
The trials reviewed in the document said that 0.8 percent of users of Prozac reported causing an intentional injury -- eight times the rate associated with any of the other antidepressants.
In the paper, titled "Activation and sedation in fluoxetine clinical trials," the authors said that the drug may produce nervousness, anxiety, agitation or insomnia in 19 percent of patients, and sedation in 13 percent of patients."

http://articles.cnn.com/2005-01-03/...depressants-joseph-wesbecker-fda?_s=PM:HEALTH

nice!!! good thing those nasty street dealers have more scruples than eli lilly... (did i mention they knew it caused suicide and violence and all kinds of problems and they sold it anyway, even hid the research)

patiently awaiting my cerebral deficit to kick in...

 

[metalman]

good thing those nasty street dealers have more scruples than eli lilly... (did i mention they knew it caused suicide and violence and all kinds of problems and they sold it anyway, even hid the research)

patiently awaiting my cerebral deficit to kick in...

Inference from your Argument:
Prozac sold by street dealers is safer than Prozac sold by pharmaceutics

must be because street dealers know more about drug interactions than physicians

Like an Alzheimer's patient, you'll ever even know ...

 

[cecilia]

Can you read or do you just look at the pretty pictures??



that is an "irrational risk association"

the person quoted who says LSD is good was directly quoted as that is also making an "irrational risk association"

Do you plan to debate this by Argumentum ad Hominem ad Ininfitum or Argumentum de re?

I don't think you understand Robert's point (which I'm basically agreeing with).
plus, I can create "pretty" pictures which is something you are completely incapable of doing. it's got nothing to do with drugs.

 

[robert l. bentham]

Inference from your Argument:
Prozac sold by street dealers is safer than Prozac sold by pharmaceutics

must be because street dealers know more about drug interactions than physicians

Like an Alzheimer's patient, you'll ever even know ...

firstly that is your inference, someone else might read the same things and come to a different conclusion, based on first hand experience, (presumably which you don't have), or a mountain of contradicting evidence from years of clinical practice working specifically with drug addicts and traumatized soldiers.
another thing you've noticeably neglected to do was refute anything ive actually said. you also neglected to mention when you posted the side effects of lsd the percentages of people that actually experience them which is at worst case scenario, still less than prozac. you can disagree with what i'm saying, it's unconventional thinking and fellers that engage in that are routinely ridiculed, i will count myself in the greatest of company, galileo comes to mind. jeremy bentham too... hell even jesus.... and like all them fellers i have one other thing in common, the actual facts support what i'm saying.

in·fer·ence/ˈinf(ə)rəns/


Noun:

1. A conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning.
2. The process of reaching such a conclusion: "order, health, and by inference cleanliness".

 

[robert l. bentham]

must be because street dealers know more about drug interactions than physicians

thats actually quite possibly true

Like an Alzheimer's patient, you'll ever even know ...

that would be another thing you seem ill informed about

 

[metalman]

I don't think you understand Robert's point (which I'm basically agreeing with).

Humans are very poor at estimating risk, and we tend to overestimate them, especially when they require balancing probabilities. The way risk is reported often doesn’t help. Media reports gave very little guide to how much risk there was, and often give the impression the increase in risk is substantial

 

[robert l. bentham]

cerebral deficit...

During this time, Jobs experimented withpsychedelics, later calling his LSD experiences "one of the two or three most important things [he had] done in [his] life".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs

 

[robert l. bentham]

Humans are very poor at estimating risk, and we tend to overestimate them, especially when they require balancing probabilities. The way risk is reported often doesn’t help. Media reports gave very little guide to how much risk there was, and often give the impression the increase in risk is substantial

yeppers... thats exactly what you are doing...

 

[Robert]

Temazepam is prescribed for sleep disorders, taken before bedtime. If he was "under the influence", he would have been asleep

Wrong.

Speaking as someone who spent a chunk of my latter teenage years babysitting friends who liked to drop Temazepam (known locally as jellies), I can only assume you've never witnessed such.

A thoroughly unpleasant experience for anyone in the company who is not taking part, jellies routinely resulted in otherwise well-adjusted individuals deciding to steal things they didn't need, start fights with complete strangers, have an air of general belligerence and, best of all, be unable to remember anything the next day.
Horrible drug.

 

[Robert]

Last night's Government announcement came amid concern that the drug
makes abusers aggressive and led to 50 deaths last year in Glasgow
alone,

This is exactly what I was talking about. I witnessed a lot of Temazepam-induced bampottery, more often than not involving violence.

 

[Robert]

========================================
** LSD Adverse Effects **

CHROMOSOME DAMAGE.
LSD damages chromosomes.

As far as I'm aware this claim is strongly disputed:

A number of scientific papers have been published indicating that LSD might cause structural changes in the chromosomes, genetic mutations, disturbances of embryonic development, and malignant degeneration of cells. However a comparable number of publications question the accuracy of these allegations. Some are independent experimental studies which have yielded negative results, others criticize the original papers for serious conceptual and methodological inadequacies. Despite all the experimental work done in this area, and the vast expenditure of time and energy, the results are ambiguous and contradictory.

http://www.psychedelic-library.org/grofchro.htm

And:

The study by Cohen et al., and several studies which followed it, involved
the addition of LSD to cell cultures. There are problems with this approach.
First, the process of culturing cells stimulates them to enter a reproductive
phase which is abnormal for them. Second, cells in tests tubes are extremely
susceptible to chromosome breakage; aspirin, caffeine, water, and changes in
temperature or oxygen pressure are some of the many agents which induce
breakage of the same order of magnitude as LSD. Third, the type of breakage
produced by LSD is different from that caused by known mutagenic or
carcinogenic agents. Fourth, intact organisms have evolved metabolic and
excretory systems to eliminate harmful substances, but these detoxification
mechanisms are not available to cells in test tubes. Thus, cells have
typically been exposed to very high doses for prolonged periods of time.
Only four studies investigated chromosome breakage rates in humans before
and after exposure to LSD. Only one of the studies was positive.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_writings4.shtml

The rest of your post is equally questionable.

 

[metalman]

Wrong.

Speaking as someone who spent a chunk of my latter teenage years babysitting friends who liked to drop Temazepam (known locally as jellies), I can only assume you've never witnessed such.

A thoroughly unpleasant experience for anyone in the company who is not taking part, jellies routinely resulted in otherwise well-adjusted individuals deciding to steal things they didn't need, start fights with complete strangers, have an air of general belligerence and, best of all, be unable to remember anything the next day.
Horrible drug.

That would be the difference between taking any drug at the prescribed level or abusing it by taking it at a level much much higher than recommended dose.

I have seen no evidence showing Zimmerman was abusing Temazepam

 

[Robert]

That would be the difference between taking any drug at the prescribed level or abusing it by taking it at a level much much higher than recommended dose.

No, that would be the difference between taking it and going to bed, like you're supposed to, and taking it and going out with your pals instead.
Of course, taking more made matters worse. However, two pills (a regularly prescribed dosage here) was often plenty enough to facilitate mayhem.

 

[robert l. bentham]

That would be the difference between taking any drug at the prescribed level or abusing it by taking it at a level much much higher than recommended dose.

I have seen no evidence showing Zimmerman was abusing Temazepam

be reasonable... prescribed users of prozac self harmed at a rate higher that the lsd statistics you posted... all too damn often its the legal manufacturers killing you... if i ran a meth lab that caused 3 point some percent to kill themselves they'd be going after me like i was selling bath salts (clearly labeled not for human consumption), big pharma does it everyday.they do half ass studies to begin with, hide the unfavorable ones, and then they lobby congress to have the time length for long term study shortened under bush because; hey, we need our fawkin boner pills... i dunno guys... you can think im being unreasonable due to a lifetime of using drugs, or you can believe the science behind it... i've no faith in fairy world...