Turkey broils

FluffyMcDeath

FluffyMcDeath

Active Member
Member
Joined
May 17, 2005
Messages
12,256
Reaction score
2,693
Seems like tensions in the Middle East are boiling over and Turkey is having it's turn for unrest. Erdogan seems to have taken a stupid and pig headed position - a public asset is to be turned into a private asset and stuff the Turkish people. The people disagreed. Seems like the democratic and straight forward option would have been to concede and pull the plug on the plan.

It seems that Erdogan misread the situation or whichever private individual are behind this they are applying a lot of pressure to have things work out their way. It will be interesting to see how much of a crackdown we allow Erdogan to have. It would be interesting to see if someone would find it to their advantage to put guns into the place and nurture some sort of Turkish Free Army or National Turkish Council.

Turkey hasn't been a very good friend of Israel in the last few years but it's been a pretty cooperative ally of Europe and the west. They were hoping to have a pipeline to Europe and bring Kurdish oil to Europe in competition with Russian supplies.
 
The protests in Turkey are still small potatoes to what we saw in Athens in 2008. I wouldn't get too excited there Fluffy. Protests and riots in Europe aren't that uncommon (even when there isn't a soccer game involved). It's not like the authorities are using live amo like they did in Syria.
 
Glaucus said:
The protests in Turkey are still small potatoes to what we saw in Athens in 2008. I wouldn't get too excited there Fluffy.
Click to expand...

Yup. So far. And who knows. It seems to have become a much bigger deal that it was when it started. People seem to be ready to blow up.

All day long on the CBC they've been saying that the protest is about religion and about Erdogan pushing the country into religious conservatism. That may or may not be the case. It might not be the "religious" part they are most fussed over.

It started with a bunch of people who would rather have a park with trees that another shopping mall in their neighbourhood. In a democratic state it would seem that the shopping mall would then not happen - the will of the people.

However, Erdogan seems to be philosophically aligned with western business sensibilities. He sent in the state apparatus to clean out the area so that business could march on. The rights of some people to build shopping malls and make money where the rest of the people would rather have a park must, in a "free" nation must remain per-eminent and inviolable. He can't let the people win.

Particularly, he can't let the people win because the developer is his son-in-law.
 
Erdogan might be an asshole, but I'm not sure the majority of Turks feel that way. He's pretty bold and doesn't hold back. He pissed of powerful friends and neighbors but at the same time he manages to get his way. I kinda figured he'd be this kind of leader when he decided to liquidate all the top ranking military officers soon after he took office. He just better stay clear of Greece - although he has threatened Greece with war if Greece claims it's exclusive economic zone at the UN. Not a very nice neighbor.
 
A bit of insight from today's Guardian:
It all started as a peaceful sit-in to save one of the last remaining public parks in a city of almost 14 million people. The government has been adamant about razing the park to rebuild the old Ottoman military barracks that once stood there and to then turn it into a museum or a mall. It was a decision that was made too fast and without proper public and media debate. Many people, who would opt for a public garden over a shopping mall, felt their voices were not heard by the politicians. Of these, some have ended up occupying Gezi Park. At the same time, the hashtag #occupygezi was launched, calling out for support and solidarity. As Koray Çaliskan, a political scientist from the Bosphorus University, wrote in the daily Radikal newspaper, these early protesters came from diverse ideological backgrounds, and among them were even people who had voted in the past for the party in power, the Justice and Development party (AKP).

The harshness of the police treatment of those who occupied Gezi Park changed everything. The protesters' tents were raided and set on fire. A university student underwent surgery after receiving blows to his genitals. Sirri Süreyya Önder, an MP from the Kurdish Peace and Democracy party (BDP), was hospitalised after being reportedly hit by a tear gas cartridge, and many others received head and body injuries. Images of armed police officers using pressurised water, pepper spray and tear gas against unarmed youngsters sparked a widespread reaction, creating an unprecedented backlash against the government and unleashing old resentments. Protests flared up in 60 cities, including the capital, Ankara. Rapidly, the Taksim demonstrations snowballed into something beyond Istanbul, and bigger than the protection of a public park.
Click to expand...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/03/taksim-square-istanbul-turkey-protest
 
More in Asia Times.

The irony cherry in the cake is Damascus, now gleefully warning Erdogan to curb the violent repression, listen to "his people", or resign.
Click to expand...

Indeed.

Though the shooting hasn't started and hopefully there won't be any - but I have already seen video of a wrecked police car and some guy is dragging an AK-47 out of the wreck. If the police have these things in their cruisers that is a problem and if people are getting their hands on them from cruisers that is also a problem and if some groups are intent on putting some guns into the area then there is already video out there that could justify them as captured weapons.

Erdogan may not have much time to back down. Assad tried to back down and start a reform process but he was then overrun by a well armed opposition. It's a very dangerous situation that could be used by Russia or Iran or the PKK or Israel or any of a number of actors to unhinge Europe from the Middle East.

Oh - and Mike, shall we hope that Erdogan doesn't try take a page from Maggie Thatcher on "how to be more popular" and start a hot war over a territorial dispute. It would likely be madness unless he could reach some sort of accommodation - I'll keep the oil pipelines open in exchange for a bit of Greek territory.
 
Personally I'm not convinced that Turkey will descend into a Syria like civil war as there's little reason to. Erdogan after all was democratically elected and is likely to be democratically unelected. Turkish brutality is nothing new really. This will likely settle down. But if it doesn't and all hell does break loose, it'll be interesting.

I have already seen video of a wrecked police car and some guy is dragging an AK-47 out of the wreck.
Click to expand...
That's interesting. Turkey is a NATO member and one that actually produces weapons for other members. Issuing AK-47s seems a bit odd but I suppose they're cheap and popular in that region.

Assad tried to back down and start a reform process but he was then overrun by a well armed opposition.
Click to expand...
Your credibility would improve dramatically if you refrained from posting nonsense like this. And btw, Assad can still back down. It's called: Get out of Syria.

It's a very dangerous situation that could be used by Russia or Iran or the PKK or Israel
Click to expand...
...or Greece. But most likely the Kurds, or at least, they are the most likely to get blamed for any shenanigans. Greece doesn't really need to worry much as they are not only part of NATO but part of the EU and are now best friends with Israel. And if it did come to a shooting war, I'd put my money on Greece's airforce.
 
lol.... kurds... lol.... omg!! and you talk of nonsense... assad back down? would any elected leader of any nation? really? greeces air farce?
 
Glaucus said:
Personally I'm not convinced that Turkey will descend into a Syria like civil war as there's little reason to.
Click to expand...

Neither do I and I don't suppose that anyone has calculated that it would be good to help them descend into chaos ... though that might depend on how superpower negotiations are going.
Your credibility would improve dramatically if you refrained from posting nonsense like this. And btw, Assad can still back down. It's called: Get out of Syria.
Click to expand...

Likewise I could say that your credibility would improve if you knew that it's not nonsense. Between the people's movement and the western outrage over the response Assad was backed into a corner and ready to give concessions. This was acceptable to the peaceful resistance but not to the western powers and the neighbouring dictators. Peaceful ceding of powers in baby steps is the best way to go if you have the chance. Revolutions typically end in dictatorships since it generally requires a brutal and firm hand to convince the various factions to stop fighting amongst themselves.

Ironically inside Syria Assad is looking to more people to be that brutal firm hand and they are willing to accept him so that they can get back to their fairly western and secular lives rather than being forced to have the men grow beards and the women wear sacks.


Most serious people would rather work with Assad than the armed religious gangs that are currently tearing up the countryside.
 
robert l. bentham said:
greeces air farce?
Click to expand...
You might wanna know what you're talking about before you post stupid garbage. Greek fighter pilots get real life training in dog fighting on a daily basis. It's one of the most active non-combat air forces in NATO. And they have more than once kicked US air force's but in training games. Greece also has almost as many F-16s as Turkey and they're a newer model. And the Greek islands are all armed to the teeth with surface to air missiles - even the touristy ones. Greece owns both Russian S300 and US patriot missile batteries. Greece is serious about air defense.

Two Greeks Among NATO’s Top Pilots

And here's a nice view of Turkish F-16 as seen in the HUD of a Hellenic Air Force F-16.

 
Charming bit of tear gas japery in Istanbul's Taksim Square :
Turkish-riot-policeman-pr-010.jpg

A-Turkish-policeman-uses--008.jpg

Turkish-riot-policeman-us-010.jpg

Turkish-riot-policeman-us-010.jpg
 
Glaucus said:
You might wanna know what you're talking about before you post stupid garbage. Greek fighter pilots get real life training in dog fighting on a daily basis. It's one of the most active non-combat air forces in NATO. And they have more than once kicked US air force's but in training games. Greece also has almost as many F-16s as Turkey and they're a newer model. And the Greek islands are all armed to the teeth with surface to air missiles - even the touristy ones. Greece owns both Russian S300 and US patriot missile batteries. Greece is serious about air defense.

Two Greeks Among NATO’s Top Pilots

And here's a nice view of Turkish F-16 as seen in the HUD of a Hellenic Air Force F-16.

Click to expand...


you are kidding right?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top