Turkey broils

Robert said:
That link's not working for me. Any chance of a cut'n'paste of the salient parts?
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It seem to be taking an indecent amount of time to open at the moment but here's a clip.

The protests that have now engulfed the country may have begun in Gezi Park in Taksim, the heart of Istanbul. It was never just about trees, but the accumulation of many incidents. With the world's highest number of imprisoned journalists, thousands of political prisoners (trade unionists, politicians, activists, students, lawyers) Turkey has been turned into an open-air prison already. Institutional checks and balances have been removed by the current AKP government's political manoeuvres and their actions go uncontrolled. On top of this growing authoritarianism, the most important reason for people to hit the streets in support of the Gezi resistance was the arrogant tone of the Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. Even on Sunday, when millions of people were joining the demonstrations, he called the protestors "looters".
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Basically, we are now seeing why Turkey has not been able to enter the EU. Their human rights abuses alone have prevented them so far and Erdogan was never that interested in fixing that problem. All I got to say is good, Turkey doesn't belong in the EU on any level as far as I'm concerned. Now if only we could kick them out of NATO too.

The Turkish lobby is a lot stronger than some might expect. The Jews took much of the heat for blocking US congressional resolutions regarding the death of 1.5 million Armenians by the Turks. As the sole ally in the region, Turkey leveraged their "friendship" to make use of Israel's lobby groups to defeat any mention of their murderous past. It was certainly bad for Israel to help cover up genocide, but at the same time, Turkey placed immense pressure on them to do so. Overall I think Israel is better off without Turkey's "friendship" and are no longer obstructing the Armenian past.

Then there are the Kurds....
 
Glaucus said:
Oh ya, almost forgot. Greece's secret weapon is to always be under estimated by their enemies.
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yeah... lets consider that while we breakdown the other nonsense... give me a minute... underestimated... lol!!
 
Glaucus said:
You might wanna know what you're talking about before you post stupid garbage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Hellenic_Army

k. we are clear...

Greek fighter pilots get real life training in dog fighting on a daily basis.

"practice don't make perfect. perfect practice makes perfect". my 6th grade violin teacher

It's one of the most active non-combat air forces in NATO.

no masturbating smiley or faceplant jesus available in smiley options...:( wayne?!!!

And they have more than once kicked US air force's but in training games.

heh heh... our real pilots are in the field killing folks... war games are for second stringers.. common knowledge...

Greece also has almost as many F-16s as Turkey and they're a newer model.

hmmm... by penis model you lose by 28...

http://www.globalfirepower.com/aircraft-total.asp

And the Greek islands are all armed to the teeth with surface to air missiles - even the touristy ones.

yeah yeah... patriot missiles... woo hooo!

**

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2003/03/patriot_games.html

*not even the pac 3 system... still mostly the defunct number 2... hahahahaha!!!

Greece owns both Russian S300 and US patriot missile batteries.
(*) (**)

Greece is serious about air defense.

hail mary; full of grace...

Two Greeks Among NATO’s Top Pilots

lol

And here's a nice view of Turkish F-16 as seen in the HUD of a Hellenic Air Force F-16.

turkey? really? oooooooh

the men who steal greece will come in suits.... selling you guns and a bunch of other "services" you don't need unless they decide you need them...

http://financearmageddon.blogspot.com/2013/03/greg-palast-imf-eu-conspired-with.html

quit bein a dick... i actually agree with you on a bunch of stuff
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greece looks liike some 3rd rate military junta when you look at it with any kind of scrutiny... not sure all of those unemployed masses would submit to anything less than a job creatin' cretin, err i mean businessman...
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Likewise I could say that your credibility would improve if you knew that it's not nonsense. Between the people's movement and the western outrage over the response Assad was backed into a corner and ready to give concessions.
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Actually, Assad DID give concessions. But here's the problem: timeline. You can't order your troops to fire on the people and then decide to cancel the decades old state of emergency and expect everyone to be happy. It doesn't work like that. Erdogan is finding it tough now because his knee jerk reaction was to set the police loose on a bunch of people protesting about a {bleep} park! Now it turned into a lot more than a park and a simple apology isn't enough. Erdogan now needs to think very carefully about how to treat the protests from this point on. He should take a lesson from Greece: let the protesters burn the place and eventually they'll run out of things to burn and go home. And someone will probably need to resign. In fact, it might be a number of someones. If he tries to break them he'll end up like Assad. Assad didn't get that and he released the military against "his" people. That's not the sort of thing you can make people forget easily with a few "concessions". Sorry, but that IS nonsense.

This was acceptable to the peaceful resistance but not to the western powers and the neighbouring dictators.
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It was not acceptable to the resistance because it was too little too late. Assad promised reform since the day he took power. Many people even believed him. But that was then and this is now.

Peaceful ceding of powers in baby steps is the best way to go if you have the chance.
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Maybe, IF you have the chance. Assad had the chance and he blew it. He also had the chance to cede power in big pappa-bear chunks, but he blew that too. The key point is to cede power and he showed no interest in that.

Ironically inside Syria Assad is looking to more people to be that brutal firm hand and they are willing to accept him so that they can get back to their fairly western and secular lives rather than being forced to have the men grow beards and the women wear sacks.
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Hey, if I was in Syria I might side with Assad too based on his support for Christians (describing Assad's rule as Western is a bit of a farce, unless you're referring to Western fashion that the Syrian elites enjoyed). But what I think really isn't important. Like I said before, it's what the majority wants and the majority are not like you and me or Assad. Don't you find it interesting that despite the fact that Syria was predominantly Sunni muslim, Assad only allowed one Sunni mosque in the entire country? We're talking about systemic oppression of people, a state where police had authority to arrest at will and without reason or cause and were not afraid of abusing those privileges. Do that for decades and people are gonna take issue. This is what makes Syria different from Turkey as Erdogan is part of the majority. To make Turkey analogous to Syria you'd have to see a minority Greek Christian group take power of Turkey that uses the state powers to persecute the muslim majority. I'm pretty sure I know exactly how that would end.

Most serious people would rather work with Assad than the armed religious gangs that are currently tearing up the countryside.
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I'd expect most serious people would rather work with neither.
 
Glaucus said:
He should take a lesson from Greece: let the protesters burn the place and eventually they'll run out of things to burn and go home. And someone will probably need to resign. In fact, it might be a number of someones. If he tries to break them he'll end up like Assad. Assad didn't get that and he released "his people" against "his" people.
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cuz they were all his people before they weren't.... ;)
 
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robert l. bentham said:
cuz they were all his people before they weren't.... ;)
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The military isn't supposed to be used for police action. It's supposed to protect all the people. Instead Assad used it to protect Assad from the people. I'm sure even Fluffy would agree with me on that. Not sure what the hell is wrong with you all of a sudden.
 
robert l. bentham said:
what is the military importance of greece
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I think you grossly misunderstood what I said about the Greek air force. I'm not claiming that Greece is the most powerful military on the planet or that Greece would destroy Turkey. I'm just saying that the Greek military, HAF in particular, is strong enough to offer enough deterrent so that Turkey doesn't get any crazy ideas. Like I said, if you do your research you'll see that Greece's air defense is actually quite good and in many cases better than Turkey's. Sure, that MIGHT change when Turkey gets the F-35s but as of now they haven't. Greece has more SAM installations and better air born early warning systems than Turkey. Even the Greek Navy is quite formidable. The only real worry for Greece is the massive Turkish infantry, but the Turks have only three options to move infantry into Greece: air, sea and land. Air is suicide, navy wouldn't be much better leaving only land as a real option. But the land in North Eastern Greece is full of tight mountain narrows and bridges which will be mined and blown up. Greek artillery and air power will concentrate on the natural choke points. An invasion of Greece from Turkey is far from trivial.

As your pathetic attempt to discredit Greek military capabilities you might want to at least research Greece's role in WW2. Greece provided the allies with the first allied victory in the war when they not only repulsed the Italian invasion, but also pushed them back and conquered parts of Albania which was allied with the Axis powers. When Germans took Crete, their elite paratrooper units took such heavy casualties that Hitler decided to never again use large scale paratroopers in the war. The NAZI capture of Greece took so much longer than planned that it forced the NAZIs to launch their Russian invasion later in the year which then forced them to fight in one of the coldest winters of which they were ill prepared. When the British initially formed the Special Air Service in Northern Africa during WW2, one of the original units was a band of Greek military commandos. You're gonna have to do a little more than just look at a few google headlines.

All this about Greece was a response to something Fluffy said. None of this is really important either. Not sure why you went ape shit over it. Maybe it's time to lay off the drugs.
 
robert l. bentham said:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-petty-bourgeois-left-promotes-the-cia-war-in-syria/5331001
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This is an article about the raging war in Syria. It's not about how the early beginnings of it which is what Fluffy and I were discussing. We were both talking about how the current situation in Turkey is similar/dissimilar to that of Syria. The current situation in Turkey is nothing at all like what's going on in Syria right now. Not sure what your point is.
 
Glaucus said:
As your pathetic attempt to discredit Greek military capabilities ...
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yeah... its lil ol me... making them weak and inferior...;) and somehow you are concerned....?




http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/EN/belge/2-3271/the-greek-army-in-disarray.html

and the organization that places them 29th...

and the other one that puts them not even in the top ten where skills are concerned...

Glaucus said:
The military isn't supposed to be used for police action. It's supposed to protect all the people. Instead Assad used it to protect Assad from the people. I'm sure even Fluffy would agree with me on that. Not sure what the hell is wrong with you all of a sudden.
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militaries protect the guy in charge... the guy in charge is appointed by bankers....
 
robert l. bentham said:
http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/EN/belge/2-3271/the-greek-army-in-disarray.html
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Now this is an article that Greece spends way more on it's military per GDP (and per capita) than all other NATO members. Like I didn't know that. That's also why I said I have confidence in the Greek military. Yes, Greece is finding it harder to fund it's military, but it currently still has a huge air force and it still trains along side other NATO members and now Israel as well. Telling me Greece spends billions on it's military actually doesn't make the Greek military look weak or incapable.

The article also down plays the Turkish threat and makes the case that because Turkey is a NATO member war between them is impossible. Only very stupid people believe that. Turkey is a threat. Here's a hint as to why: Aegean Oil
Tensions over the 12 mile question ran highest between the two countries in the early 1990s, when the Law of the Sea was going to come into force. On 9 June 1995, the Turkish parliament officially declared that unilateral action by Greece would constitute a casus belli, i.e. reason to go to war. This declaration has been condemned by Greece as a violation of the Charter of the United Nations, which forbids "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state".
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Many Greeks feel it is their right to exploit their resources to help themselves exit the debt crisis. However Turkey has repeatedly threatened Greece with war if it decides to claim it's exclusive economic zone at the UN.
 
Glaucus said:
Erdogan is finding it tough now because his knee jerk reaction was to set the police loose on a bunch of people protesting about a {bleep} park! Now it turned into a lot more than a park and a simple apology isn't enough.
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lol... cough cough... benghazi was about a movie... cough cough...

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/09/29/264090/israel-benefits-from-syria-unrest/

http://friendsofsyria.wordpress.com/enemies-of-syria/israel’s-plot-to-take-down-syria-i/

yep... must be it... people willing to die to prevent a mall being built... :D


http://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-director-reportedly-in-turkey-for-secret-talks/5303220

http://www.infowars.com/cia-spies-in-turkey-secretly-help-armed-gangs-in-syria/

On June 21, the New York Times reported that a group of CIA officers are operating secretly in southern Turkey and that the agents are helping the anti-Syria governments decide which gangs inside the Arab country will receive arms to fight the Syrian government.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/09/29/264090/israel-benefits-from-syria-unrest/
 
Glaucus said:
Now this is an article that Greece spends way more on it's military per GDP (and per capita) than all other NATO members. Like I didn't know that. That's also why I said I have confidence in the Greek military. Yes, Greece is finding it harder to fund it's military, but it currently still has a huge air force and it still trains along side other NATO members and now Israel as well.
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unsustainable save outside "benefactors" and what is greece worth really? lifetime of economic bailouts for a country with nothing really?


What are 5 natural resources of Greece?


Answer:​
Marble,Lead,Salt,Petroleum and Lignite.

Bauxite, Asbestos, Nickel, Magnesite & Marble

Did we answer your question?​
Yes​
No​
Partially​

lol!! airbases to bomb iran thru turkey linked by unrest in greece, oddly not mentioned... :D
 
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