Ukraine/Crimea

Side effects?
SpaceX has won an injunction blocking the United Launch Alliance (ULA) from buying rocket equipment from Russia to service its contract with the US Air Force for orbital launches.

Judge Susan Braden ruled on Wednesday that the ULA - a 50/50 joint venture between Lockheed Martin and Boeing that has an exclusive, non-compete contract with the US Air Force to loft its satellites (and the super-secret X-37B spaceplane) into space – would be violating sanctions law if it carried on sourcing RD-180 rocket engines from Russian firm NPO Energomash.


"The US Court of Federal Claims took a prudent step toward understanding whether United Launch Alliance's current sole-source contract violates US sanctions by sending taxpayer money to Russia for the RD-180 engine," a SpaceX spokeswomen told The Reg.
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/0...to_block_us_air_force_buying_russian_rockets/
 
And that's just the beginning on costs for Russia. The long term cost will be immense. It's a war of attrition and they can't win that.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
NATO continues build-up on Ukraine border in attempt to "de-escalate".
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No Fluffy, Russian reporters drove around and didn't see any NATO buildup at all so I guess those are all lies.

Ya, that's pretty ridiculous, it actually hurt me to type that. But that's basically what you said to me not too long ago. I just wanted to know what it's like pushing so much BS and I have to say, I don't really care for it.
 
Glaucus said:
No Fluffy, Russian reporters drove around and didn't see any NATO buildup at all so I guess those are all lies.

Ya, that's pretty ridiculous, it actually hurt me to type that. But that's basically what you said to me not too long ago. I just wanted to know what it's like pushing so much BS and I have to say, I don't really care for it.
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'cept we keep hearing it on our news how we are sending stuff to the area. Canada sent a bunch of planes. The US is sending troops. Other nations are sending troops and equipment and aircraft and boats. Then there'll be a big marching around all over Poland and other eastern states and if the US gets lucky someone dressed as a Russian will take a pot-shot and it'll be game on.
Either way, there's likely to be a lasting escalation.
 
Poor Wolf. His on-the-scene reporters aren't really playing along.
 
Glaucus said:
And that's just the beginning on costs for Russia. The long term cost will be immense. It's a war of attrition and they can't win that.
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On the other hand, they've seen worse. They lived through Yeltsin, remember.
 
When the New York Times back pedals, it does it quietly and on page 9 at best. About those photos of Russians ... well.....
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
'cept we keep hearing it on our news how we are sending stuff to the area. Canada sent a bunch of planes. The US is sending troops. Other nations are sending troops and equipment and aircraft and boats. Then there'll be a big marching around all over Poland and other eastern states and if the US gets lucky someone dressed as a Russian will take a pot-shot and it'll be game on.
Either way, there's likely to be a lasting escalation.
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The idea that anyone would want to confront Russia on Russian soil is pretty stupid. Yes, Russia would lose the war, but they're still a nuclear power and that's enough to make this line of thinking rather silly. All this was true during the cold war, no reason for that to change now. Like I said before, none of this in Ukraine would be happening either if Ukraine never gave up it's nuclear arsenal to Russia, and it only did so on assurances that Russia and the Western nations would help protect it.

Yes, NATO is moving things around, mostly from Central and Western parts of Europe to the East (Yes, Canada flew some F16s there, but I wonder if they brought any missiles with them this time as they didn't during the Gulf War in 1990). And it's mostly just for show - the forces are far too small to be considered a real threat to Russia. And if those Eastern European nations are lucky, some of those units moved Eastward will stay there - which is what they've been demanding for years. But it's really a bargaining chip, if all this blows over and Putin backs off, I'd expect to see most of those units if not all redeployed. And besides, we know that what really matters is where are the US carrier fleets. From that I see no reason to be worried and I personally don't feel that Russia is overly concerned either. Russia's biggest headache is gonna be their economy, or lack there of. The fact that the US isn't selling military hardware to Ukraine is a clear sign that they are not attempting to escalate the situation.
 
Glaucus said:
The fact that the US isn't selling military hardware to Ukraine is a clear sign that they are not attempting to escalate the situation.
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Well, you could apply the same logic to, "The fact that the Russians haven't intervened to protect Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine is a clear sign that they are not attempting to escalate the situation," and it would be just as vapid.

All sides are shit-stirring. To claim otherwise is absurd.
 
Robert said:
Well, you could apply the same logic to, "The fact that the Russians haven't intervened to protect Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine is a clear sign that they are not attempting to escalate the situation," and it would be just as vapid.

All sides are shit-stirring. To claim otherwise is absurd.
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Well, to be honest, I don't think either side wants to escalate to a full blown war. I think Putin wants to do whatever he wants to do on the cheap. Crimea he got for practically free. He knows that if he stops there he's certain to skirt the brunt of Western sanctions and what damage has already been done can be managed. So today we are seeing signs that perhaps Putin has no intention of taking more of Ukraine as he doesn't see it as worthy of the costs, which would be wise. Of course, he could also be playing games as this move could be designed to split the Europeans which would greatly add to his advantage. Hard to say at this point. Still, the real proof will be when we see these grass roots pro-Russian protestsers who just happen to be lavishly armed and exhibit an amazing amount of military know-how and operate like clock-work to return to Russia. I mean, return home.
 
John Pilger has an article in today's Gaurdian:

Why do we tolerate the threat of another world war in our name? Why do we allow lies that justify this risk? The scale of our indoctrination,wrote Harold Pinter, is a "brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis", as if the truth "never happened even while it was happening".

Every year the American historian William Blum publishes his "updated summary of the record of US foreign policy" which shows that, since 1945, the US has tried to overthrow more than 50 governments, many of them democratically elected; grossly interfered in elections in 30 countries; bombed the civilian populations of 30 countries; used chemical and biological weapons; and attempted to assassinate foreign leaders.

--

Washington's role in Ukraine is different only in its implications for the rest of us. For the first time since the Reagan years, the US is threatening to take the world to war. With eastern Europe and the Balkans now military outposts of Nato, the last "buffer state" bordering Russia – Ukraine – is being torn apart by fascist forces unleashed by the US and the EU. We in the west are now backing neo-Nazis in a country where Ukrainian Nazis backed Hitler.

Having masterminded the coup in February against the democratically elected government in Kiev, Washington's planned seizure of Russia's historic, legitimate warm-water naval base in Crimea failed. The Russians defended themselves, as they have done against every threat and invasion from the west for almost a century.

But Nato's military encirclement has accelerated, along with US-orchestrated attacks on ethnic Russians in Ukraine. If Putin can be provoked into coming to their aid, his pre-ordained "pariah" role will justify a Nato-run guerrilla war that is likely to spill into Russia itself.

Instead, Putin has confounded the war party by seeking an accommodation with Washington and the EU, by withdrawing Russian troops from the Ukrainian border and urging ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine to abandon the weekend's provocative referendum. These Russian-speaking and bilingual people – a third of Ukraine's population – have long sought a democratic federation that reflects the country's ethnic diversity and is both autonomous of Kiev and independent of Moscow. Most are neither "separatists" nor "rebels", as the western media calls them, but citizens who want to live securely in their homeland.

Like the ruins of Iraq and Afghanistan, Ukraine has been turned into a CIA theme park – run personally by CIA director John Brennan in Kiev, with dozens of "special units" from the CIA and FBI setting up a "security structure" that oversees savage attacks on those who opposed the February coup. Watch the videos, read the eye-witness reports from the massacre in Odessa this month. Bussed fascist thugs burned the trade union headquarters, killing 41 people trapped inside. Watch the police standing by.
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http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger
 
Glaucus said:
Crimea he got for practically free. He knows that if he stops there he's certain to skirt the brunt of Western sanctions and what damage has already been done can be managed.
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But he still gets to mess with the Ukrainians. While they are all taking a 50% cut in their pensions because the IMF is "helping" them, the guys in Crimea are seeing their pensions double to come up to Russian standards.
Even though they could have had 15 billion dollars from Russia under the deal that the "revolution" scuppered over the 3 billion with strings from the EU, now they get 3.2 billion from the IMF and austerity. Putin wouldn't have to do anything and there would be riots. It's just convenient to blame Putin instead of the IMF.
Of course, he could also be playing games as this move could be designed to split the Europeans which would greatly add to his advantage. Hard to say at this point.
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Europe is already split. The US says it can make up the difference in gas supply but it's total nonsense. They can't and they certainly can't without hurting themselves. As for the economics, sure it'll hurt Russia if they can't send gas through the Ukraine. It will also hurt the US if they start charging the gas in rubels. Germany needs the gas and that will mean Germany will need tot trade with Russia to get Rubels.
Still, the real proof will be when we see these grass roots pro-Russian protestsers who just happen to be lavishly armed and exhibit an amazing amount of military know-how and operate like clock-work to return to Russia.
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Why is Kiev sending the army to the east? Because the Ukrainian army in the east doesn't work for them any more.
 
By the way: Svoboda have their platform on-line and, quite frankly, I like a lot of it ... plenty of which is completely anathema to the US - so will never be allowed to be implemented.

Interesting, about the parts where people who have duel nationality, or who try to hide their duel nationality will be dealt with.
 
Robert said:
Why do we tolerate the threat of another world war in our name?
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Sorry Robert, but that's a load of crap. There's zero chance of a world war coming out of this. Not even close. Basically, you got Pilgered. It's kinda like a strawman except that you don't misrepresent someone else's argument you just fabricate a bit of reality and then tear it apart. The entire article is junk, why would you post that here?

Here's what Christopher Hitchens had to say about him:
"I remember thinking that his work from Vietnam was very good at the time. I dare say if I went back and read it again I'd probably still admire quite a lot of it. But there is a word that gets overused and can be misused – namely, anti-American – and it has to be used about him. So that for me sort of spoils it... even when I'm inclined to agree."
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