Elon Muskrat watch

Tesla reports its first annual profit

Tesla made a $721 million profit thanks to $1.58 billion in regulatory credits.​

Robot arms work on an assembly line.

Tesla made a profit of $270 million in the fourth quarter of 2020, bringing the year's profits to $721 million. It's Tesla's first annual profit. The company posted a $826 million loss in 2019.

Guess who loaded up on Tesla stock shortly before the election knowing Biden was going to deep 6 the US oil industry? Here's a hint, she looks like The Crypt Keeper but probably older.
 

Tesla reports its first annual profit

Tesla made a $721 million profit thanks to $1.58 billion in regulatory credits.​

Robot arms work on an assembly line.

Tesla made a profit of $270 million in the fourth quarter of 2020, bringing the year's profits to $721 million. It's Tesla's first annual profit. The company posted a $826 million loss in 2019.

Tesla is such an oddball stock. They're valued larger than any other automaker, (larger than Ford, GM, and whatever the hell PSA+FCA is calling themselves today, combined) but their market share is laughable, and they face enormous problems scaling up. Meanwhile, the carbon credits they live on are a declining market. Sure, they made a profit, but they made it because of the cars they _don't_ produce rather than the ones they do.

It's an entertaining ride to watch, I wouldn't want to be on it.
 

Price of dogecoin rises by 50% following Elon Musk tweet




Dogecoin, which uses a shiba inu dog meme as its logo, was started in 2013 as a joke, after the invention of bitcoin prompted a wave of imitator cryptocurrencies. However, the joke caught on, and the coins had a market value of $6.3bn (£4.6bn) on Thursday morning, according to Coinmarketcap.com, a cryptocurrency data provider.

The value of a single coin rose to $0.05204 that Thursday morning, up by almost three cents in 24 hours. The volume of trading more than tripled over the course of the day.


Slipping back into Elon Muskrat?
 
@redrumloa

If I would have followed your anti-Tesla advice and not bought TSLA stock over many years I would have not made any money. Electric cars are here to stay and will totally change the automotive landscape in the next 3-7 years. I've been driving an EV since 2013 (It's a Nissan, not Tesla). Tesla is a great Made in America success story.
 
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@redrumloa

If I would have followed your anti-Tesla advice and not bought TSLA stock over many years I would have not made any money.
I am glad you made money but TSLA's market cap is completely detached from its underlying fundamentals. There is no justifiable reason for Tesla to have a higher market cap than Toyota, etc.

Global-automakers-tesla-deliveries-2019.png

(The 2020 numbers are similar.)

Michael Burry just announced he is short on TSLA. Personally, I would not bet against him on this.


Electric cars are here to stay and will totally change the automotive landscape in the next 3-7 years. I've been driving an EV since 2013 (It's a Nissan, not Tesla). Tesla is a great Made in America success story.
Totally? On a global scale, electric cars will remain a niche product for a long time. There are 1.4 billion cars on earth. Based on the production numbers in the chart above, it would take many decades to replace most gasoline cars even if we assume that there would be an infinite supply of raw materials for battery production, unlimited investments in power grids and charging infrastructure, no chip shortages (like the current one), etc.
 
@JoBBo

Are you really voting on the side against technology? The past is not indicative of the future. Technological innovation moves faster and faster and obliterates the past and those that side against it. Do you want to be one of the luddites from 2007 predicting the smartphone would fail? What are they saying today? Why do you think it will take many decades for Electric cars to be sold by the millions? As far as the infrastructure issues, my air conditioning unit uses more electricity than charging my EV.
 
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For years I've called Electric cars the Amiga of the car industry. Very misunderstood, way ahead of their time, and lots of competitors spreading FUD. What makes EVs different than the Amiga though is there's no Irving Gould refusing to license the technology and slowing the pace of innovation. Electric car innovation is growing exponentially and soon, within 3-6 years, an Electric car will cost half the cost of an ICE car and have many more features and conveniences. Please note, soon electric cars will not require any lithium.
 
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@ Pyromania

Bill, did you actually read what I wrote? It does not appear that you did.

The past is not indicitive of the future. Technological innovation moves faster and faster and obliderates the past and those that side against it.

We are not discussing Google or Facebook. Big Tech companies have nearly zero marginal costs. If they gain another billion of customers, their costs will pretty much stay the same but they will make a lot more money.

Despite all of Tesla's (broken) promises regarding self-driving car technologies, Tesla is primarily a car manufacturer thus growing their customer base is restricted by external and uncontrollable factors such as the availability of scarce resources such as litheum. If Tesla tried to serve 10 times as many customers, their marginal costs would explode.

Building out the power infrastructure so it can handle even just a mere 50 million electric cars in the US is going to be incredibly time-consuming (permits, lawsuits, etc.). Claiming that "technological progress" will magically solve these type of real world problems, which will affect all manufacturers of electrical cars, is based on wishful thinking.


Very misunderstood, way ahead of their time, and lots of competitors spreading FUD.

All of their main competitors have already announced they are moving to electric vehicles. For Tesla, this is not necessarily good news, however, because they will quickly transition from being one of the biggest manufacturers of electric cars to one of the smallest. Of course, their charging network will continue to provide a competitive edge for a while but the SuperCharger network is not nearly as dense outside of the US so it is more of a regional advantage.

Moreover, I did not make a single desparaging statement about electric cars in my comment. I merely pointed that - surprise, surprise - the global automotive market is much bigger than the US one. As more US customers buy electric cars, their old gasoline cars will be shipped overseas and will continue to be driven for many, many years to come. ICE cars will not disappear anytime soon.
 
@JoBBo

Tesla is the industry leader in the EV field. They benefit directly as more people switch to electric cars since they are the pioneer in that space. They also do energy storage and solar and are probably entering even more markets. Is there stock too high? Maybe, but I doubt it will ever go down to the amount I paid for it many many years ago. Toyota made a big bet on Hydrogen cars and now that that's failing they want to be a leader in the EV space. They may already be too late to catch up to Tesla's R&D. It's difficult for traditional ICE manufacturers to serve two masters. They should go all-in on EVs and let their ICE business fall to the wayside or be prepared to be left behind. Actually, the US is behind in electric car adoption but that should change in the next 3-6 years. I'm not really into the whole self-driving push. That may come but depends on government approval.

I never believed in Tesla based on self-driving promises made, broken, or otherwise. First, the importance of switching to electric cars should be established. When the Amiga was first demonstrated many mainstream computer publications and users dismissed it and were trying to debate and question the merits of computers having multitasking, hardware-accelerated graphics, stereo sound, more colors, compatibility with video standards. Hint they didn't think these features were necessary. If a manufacturer tried to release a machine without these features today it would be completely rejected by the market. I believe in six or seven years a car manufacturer releasing a new high-volume gas sedan will also be an absurd idea.
 
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I am glad you made money but TSLA's market cap is completely detached from its underlying fundamentals. There is no justifiable reason for Tesla to have a higher market cap than Toyota, etc.

Bingo. You know the old saying though, "the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent". You know the other old saying too, "even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while".
 

Price of dogecoin rises by 50% following Elon Musk tweet




Dogecoin, which uses a shiba inu dog meme as its logo, was started in 2013 as a joke, after the invention of bitcoin prompted a wave of imitator cryptocurrencies. However, the joke caught on, and the coins had a market value of $6.3bn (£4.6bn) on Thursday morning, according to Coinmarketcap.com, a cryptocurrency data provider.

The value of a single coin rose to $0.05204 that Thursday morning, up by almost three cents in 24 hours. The volume of trading more than tripled over the course of the day.


Slipping back into Elon Muskrat?

Apparently he pumped this joke cryptocurrency just to try to get street cred in the crypto market (hey fellow kids, I know his obscure joke cryptocurrency too!). Looks like he did that to set up what happened today.

Elon Musk is serious about crypto as Tesla puts $1.5 billion in bitcoin

On Monday, Musk moved from jokey tweets to major investments when Tesla disclosed in an SEC filing that the company invested $1.5 billion in bitcoin in January, and aims “to begin accepting bitcoin as a form of payment for our products in the near future.”

This amounts to 10% of Tesla's cash reserves, and is the largest corporate purchase of bitcoin ever.


Interesting move and it is certainly moving Bitcoin's price. With the richest man on the planet making this move, Tesla won't be the last to buy into Bitcoin big.
 
Tesla is the industry leader in the EV field. They benefit directly as more people switch to electric cars since they are the pioneer in that space.
Remember AltaVista or - to use a more recent example - Yahoo? How about MySpace? What about AOL?

Being an "industry leader" or a "pioneer" does not have any guaranteed intrinsic financial value. The often cited "first-mover advantage" does exist but it is actually less common than many business books make it sound like. Plus, it can and will eventually go away.


They also do energy storage and solar and are probably entering even more markets. Is there stock too high? Maybe, but I doubt it will ever go down to the amount I paid for it many many years ago.
Actually, their solar panel business is close to non-existent and they are still actively trying to figure out how to make it work. After all these years, they remain in a testing phase and continue to solicit feedback from roofing companies to figure out how they could scale up the business.

I like the general concept of "invisible" solar panels and have been following this for a while but Tesla appear to be really struggling with this. I suspect their initial cost estimates were overly aggressive and driving up sales would be highly unprofitable until they figure out how to lower manufacturing costs.


Is there stock too high? Maybe, but I doubt it will ever go down to the amount I paid for it many many years ago.

Maybe? Definitely.

Pick any large highly successful company that you can think of and look up their market cap. Next, look up their annual revenue. Next, divide the market cap by their annual revenue.

Example 1: Apple's 2020 revenue was $274.515 billion. Their market cap hovers around $2.3 trillion. So, Apple's price-to-sales ratio is roughly 8.

Just a reminder, Apple is considered to be one of the most successful companies in the world. They managed to get to 1 billion active iPhone users this year.

Example 2: Amazon have been killing it over the past decade. Between 2010 and 2020, their stock price jump from around 100 USD to over 3,000 USD. There are over 310 active customer accounts and Amazon Web Services is the world's leading cloud services provide.

Amazon's price-to-sales ratio is roughly 4.


How about Tesla? Well, their price-to-sales ratio is 27.37, yet they have merely sold roughly 1.5 million cars over the course of 17 years.

Of course, knowing you are in a bubble does not mean you cannot still profit from assuming a stock might go even higher. However, you do not have to be Nostradamus to figure out that a downward correction of the Tesla stock is more or less inevitable. Taking at least some winnings and investing them in a different stock should be a sensible strategy.


Toyota made a big bet on Hydrogen cars and now that that's failing they want to be a leader in the EV space. They may already be too late to catch up to Tesla's R&D.
Have you heard of the Prius? Toyota has sold 15 million of these. Tesla only managed to pass the mark of 1 million sold cars some time last year.

As long as your daily commute is short enough, you can in fact drive a Prius all-electric - except you still have the option to use gasoline for long trips if you ever needed to, which does provide a lot of flexibility.

It would be a mistake to discount Toyota's historic contribution for the mainstream adoption of electric cars. I was driven around in a Prius in D.C. all the way back in 2007 when pretty much nobody knew Tesla existed.

As for hydrogen, I would not belittle their efforts just yet. Just because hydrogen might remain a niche in the passenger car space, there is very serious interest in hydrogen for industrial applications (moving containers at ports or in warehouses, etc). Japan's government continues to invest heavily into hydrogen research because, being an island state with few resources, they see strategic value in not being completely dependent on, say, lithium that has to be imported in large quantities from elsewhere.


When the Amiga was first demonstrated many mainstream computer publications and users dismissed it and were trying to debate and question the merits of computers having multitasking, hardware-accelerated graphics, stereo sound, more colors, compatibility with video standards. Hint they didn't think these features were necessary. If a manufacturer tried to release a machine without these features today it would be completely rejected by the market. I believe in six or seven years a car manufacturer releasing a new high-volume gas sedan will also be an absurd idea.
See above. The Amiga is proof that being a "pioneer" at some point does not guarantee success or even long-term survival. History is full of technical marvels that ultimately failed to gain traction.
 
@JoBBo

The Prius is a success story for Hybrid cars for sure. I respect how many they managed to sell over the years. And the Prius Prime is a step in the right direction. Notice I didn't mention the Prius at all in my posts. I respect what Toyota did with that product and even enjoyed reading a book about the development of the Prius. If people feel more comfortable buying a plug-in Hybrid at first then they should do that. Tesla is moving very fast and continues to innovate at a rapid pace. Other companies better move fast if they want to catch them. I'll continue to invest in the EV space and not just in Tesla. My main point if I have one is that ICE cars are old news and the entire car industry is currently being disrupted and most things will move to electric cars in the coming 3-7 years. Car companies that can't accept that fact and don't plan for it will probably die off. Just like you don't need an Amiga to enjoy multitasking, hardware-accelerated graphics, stereo sound, more colors, and compatibility with modern video standards. You don't need a Tesla to appreciate and enjoy electric car ownership and benefit from almost no maintenance and never stopping at a gas station. Tesla certainly is a nice choice in the industry and maybe I'll get bored of the Nissan Leaf one day and get one. The nice thing about the Nissans EV offering is used Nissan Leaf cars are dirt cheap and you can enjoy eating free snacks at Nissan dealerships while charging at 440 Volts. Most of the time that's not even necessary since you can charge at home.

I don't need a stock primer from you, LOL. I've worked at several stock exchanges and in FinTech for many years. Maybe most people didn't know that Tesla existed in 2007 but I did and pointed out how much potential the company had even back then. Also, I started an Electric Car section on amiga.org in 2013 and posted many electric car articles on there over the years. Before you say anything I agree that maybe amiga.org is not the right place for that, LOL. At least it was in the Coffee House section.

 
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@JoBBo

I don't need a stock primer from you, LOL. I've worked at several stock exchanges and in FinTech for many years.
I know. I mentioned the price-to-sales ratio because I was genuinely curious if you had an alternative take on it. Apparently, you did not.

Now, if you expect a company to triple their revenue in a year or two, you can certainly price this into today's stock cost. To go back to my own example, I am sure everyone here agrees that even though they are extremely successful Apple are unlikely get to 3 billion active iPhone users anytime soon.

Will Tesla be able to triple sales and get to 1.5 million sold cars per year by 2023? I am sure they can. So, if the stock price were to either stay stagnant or only grow modestly, the price-to-sales ratio might very well get down to levels that are at least somewhat comparable to other large companies.

However, there are analysts working for very reputable and admittedly very successful investment firms that predict the stock price is most likely to go up to between 2,400 and 3,400 USD by 2024: ARK Invest

Once again, Tesla is already worth as much as the 9 largest car manufacturers world-wide despite selling far fewer vehicles. Put differently, they predict that in a mere 3 years Tesla will be worth roughly 4 to 5 times what the 9 largest car manufacturers are worth today yet still be selling far, far fewer vehicles.

Is there anybody here who genuinely believes that Tesla would deserve this valuation?


Maybe most people didn't know that Tesla existed in 2007 but I did and pointed out how much potential the company had even back then.
I was aware of Tesla and even Fisker before it went bankrupt. Still, because I followed Tesla's decade of miniscule sales, I can appreciate how much Toyota has done to bring electric vehicles to the masses. Even Nissan deserves credit because they shipped significant volume of affordable electric cars a long time before Tesla did.
 
Toyota has done nothing to bring electric vehicles to the masses. Toyota still does not offer one electric vehicle for sale, they offer only announcements. I'm hopeful that this will change. They brought hybrid vehicles to the masses, not electric vehicles. Toyota does offer the Prius & RAV4 Prime, both plug-in hybrids. I'll agree with you that Nissan has shipped a significant number of affordable electric cars. They even have a really nice EV SUV that's hopefully shipping this year. You're right that Fisker went bankrupt. They only offered a plug-in hybrid before that happened, not a pure electric vehicle. I believe the new Fisker company now owned by a Chinese company has made announcements about making and selling a true electric vehicle at some point in the future. I’m not holding my breath waiting for that one but you never know.
 
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I'm not a fan of the man himself - quite frankly, I think he's a bit of an arsehole - but it's rather amusing seeing you go after him when everybody knows that if he was a vocal Trump supporter you'd love him.

BTW, how does it feel to be wrong again? Elon Musk officially red pilled himself a year or so back, he's a huge cryptocurrency backer now, and we get shit like this:

Elon Musk Unfollows Joe Biden’s @POTUS Account on Twitter

Musk apparently isn’t interested in whatever the 78-year old Democrat has to say. Biden has promised to govern as a boring establishment politician.

The account formerly belonged to President Trump, and has been transferred to Biden after the latter’s installation in the federal presidential palace in Washington.


I find it interesting some of the things he's done in recent times, but I still think as a business man he's riding the coattails of others at best, and a snake oil salesman at worse. Him having Tesla the company buy $1.5B was indeed a smart move IMO, but he's clearly doing it to cover for the fact it is not a profitable business model and may never be.
 
BTW, how does it feel to be wrong again?
You just quoted me, from summer 2018, saying:
"I'm not a fan of the man himself - quite frankly, I think he's a bit of an arsehole - but it's rather amusing seeing you go after him when everybody knows that if he was a vocal Trump supporter you'd love him."

For that quote of mine to suddenly become worthy of you mining it to label it "wrong" leaves three possibilities:
1. You've decided, 2.5 years later, that Musk is not a bit of an arsehole, but rather a lovely fellow.
2. He was a vocal Trump supporter and while we both missed it, you've discovered it 2.5 years later, when Trump is no longer relevant, and returned to gloat.
3. You're adding 2+2 and getting 5 again.

My money's on 3.
 
Easy for China to do. They just make such vehicles legal. In the US (or most western countries probably) there would have to be additional weight for safety especially since the western countries have been putting heavier vehicles on the road making it more dangerous to be small and light. The West could easily have opened up a cheap electric market just by making such a class of cars legal - but they didn't.
Which is part of the reason that Tesla deliberately targeted the luxury performance end of the market. It's the only way for small (esp startup) car companies to get into the game in the West. In China, you just need to know the right official to bribe.
 
Toyota has done nothing to bring electric vehicles to the masses. Toyota still does not offer one electric vehicle for sale, they offer only announcements. I'm hopeful that this will change. They brought hybrid vehicles to the masses, not electric vehicles.
I am sorry but you appear to be confusing "all-electric vehicles" with "electric vehicles." You can get an "EV" tax credit when you buy a Prius. This is not a mistake.


Easy for China to do. They just make such vehicles legal. In the US (or most western countries probably) there would have to be additional weight for safety especially since the western countries have been putting heavier vehicles on the road making it more dangerous to be small and light. The West could easily have opened up a cheap electric market just by making such a class of cars legal - but they didn't.
Which is part of the reason that Tesla deliberately targeted the luxury performance end of the market. It's the only way for small (esp startup) car companies to get into the game in the West. In China, you just need to know the right official to bribe.

You probably have not heard about it in Canada but you might find the French Citroen Ami interesting:
Citroen Ami – Is it a car, domestic appliance or family pet?

Renault's Dacia Spring is also worth mentioning. You should be able to buy one for around 12K USD if you subtract European tax rebates, which is really quite competitive. Of course, as with other Dacia cars, the interior will look cheap but, unlike most Chinese EVs, it will meet all the European safety rules and buyers can trust they will get a proper warranty, which is something to consider when you buy a new car.
 
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