Amy Winehouse dead at 27

[Kesa]

So, if your real life is so full of win, how come you waste so much time online being a total tosspot?

If you must know it's because it's because i am sitting behind a computer a lot of the time working. I am at uni fulltime doing a hard degree which requires a lot of study (after the highest grade) and work too. I tend to browse the net sporadically.

My life has it's moments. I doubt I'll be remembered for much outside of friends and family, but then again, I'm not the one saying that an entire group of people are worth less than cockroaches because they made a mistake in life that the rest of us are fortunate enough to have avoided.

They made a mistake sure, and i feel for them. Everybody makes mistakes myself included. If i became an addict because i made an error in judgment i would seek help. But remember they choose not to get help. It's a choice they made so they can live with it.

 

[the_leander]

Really? You really believe this? I'm confused. I live a full and productive life and you are putting this as of lesser value than to a junkie? <snip>.

All he did was use your own argument and apply it to you in the same manner you attempted with Karlos:

I can't think of any value a junkie has in this world. They are completely useless. I would even say that a junkies life is worth less than that of a cockroach - at least a cockroach has a sense of purpose which means they are better.

Using a similar vein of utilitarian logic, what use are you to others? Winehouse brought joy to millions. Karlos hundreds if not a couple of thousand with the works mentioned...

I stand by what i said earlier. Drug users CHOOSE to take drugs and they CHOOSE not to get help and then they die as a result of the choice THEY made. Tell me again why i should care?

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true. Again:

http://dionysus.psych.wisc.edu/Lit/Articles/KreekM2005a.pdf
"Genetic influences on impulsivity ,risk taking, stress responsitivity, and vulnerability to drug abuse and addiction"

She was probably a manic-depressive personality who self medicated with chocolate, alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, and other stronger mind-altering drugs, and that combined with any genetic influences to addiction ....

Not all addicts become junkies, many are high functioning

Read that link, ask questions, learn.

 

[the_leander]

They made a mistake sure, and i feel for them. Everybody makes mistakes myself included. If i became an addict because i made an error in judgment i would seek help. But remember they choose not to get help. It's a choice they made so they can live with it.

You're making a number of huge assumptions in this post that are utterly without basis. Read metalman's link before you continue.

Hint: If you fell into drug use you're assuming you'd have the presence of mind to be able to make that decision...

 

[Glaucus]

Drug users CHOOSE to take drugs and they CHOOSE not to get help and then they die as a result of the choice THEY made. Tell me again why i should care?

And annoying assholes CHOOSE to be annoying assholes and are often hated by others as a result of the choice THEY make. Tell me again why anyone should care what you say?

You know, this isn't what I wanted to get into with this thread. For me, Amy Winehouse was a great musician first and foremost. The fact that she was a junkie was tragic, yet at the same time added to her appeal. She at least understood who she is/was and was honest about it. Say what you want about her, but being honest, especially about her own personal disgrace, has some envious qualities to it. Perhaps you should be so humble before you're quick to trash talk people you know absolutely nothing about. In that regard that dead junkie Amy Winehouse has you beat. Instead of telling us how much better you are than a dead junkie, why not tell us your insecurities, regrets and what scares you most about yourself.

You sure put a lot of effort and emotion into the subject of junkies. However wishing them death doesn't make the world a better place. If you are genuinely interested in making the world a better place I would suggest you redirect your passion for this subject into helping those junkies become non-junkies. But something tells me that's not really much of a concern for you, criticizing from a self proclaimed moral high ground seems much more your style.

 

[Glaucus]

Everybody makes mistakes myself included. If i became an addict because i made an error in judgment i would seek help. But remember they choose not to get help. It's a choice they made so they can live with it.

You're making an assumption. How do you know they haven't seeked out help? And you seem to also be implying that if they would seek out help, their problems would be solved. Both are false. Amy Winehouse has gone to rehab (despite her song) and it has failed her miserably. And you know what? When you promise someone help and you fail to deliver, things only get worse. You over simplify the issue, it's not so cut and dried as you'd like to believe.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Drug users CHOOSE to take drugs and they CHOOSE not to get help and then they die as a result of the choice THEY made. Tell me again why i should care?

Drug uses choose to take drugs but they may not have chosen the drug they are taking. There is very little quality control on illegal drugs ... because they are illegal. During prohibition people went blind and died from drinking bad liquor too - not because they would have died from drinking what they drank if it had been ethanol but because illegal liquor wasn't always reliably ethanol.

People who do drugs are like other people in that they didn't choose the circumstances or environment they were born into nor did they choose the people who were first to influence them in their lives.

On the other hand, people who thought they were doing the best for themselves took drugs that doctors told them they should take and wound up equally as dead because the FDA has abdicated its job preferring that drug companies police themselves. Maybe we should save some scorn for people who trusted their doctors too?

Not all choices are as freely chosen as they seem to be. People who are caught up in illegal drugs may find it hard to quit on many grounds beyond simple addiction including pusher pressure to keep a customer, peer pressure from friends and the unwillingness to leave a social group even if it is destructive, plus they may feel unworthy of a better life since they believe themselves to be scum and so do other people.

They may also feel unable to seek help because they are in many countries held to be criminals - that creates a significant barrier to seeking treatment.

The reason people should care is that by caring they may be able to change some of that.

 

[Kesa]

You're making an assumption. How do you know they haven't seeked out help? And you seem to also be implying that if they would seek out help, their problems would be solved. Both are false. Amy Winehouse has gone to rehab (despite her song) and it has failed her miserably. And you know what? When you promise someone help and you fail to deliver, things only get worse. You over simplify the issue, it's not so cut and dried as you'd like to believe.

Sure she went to rehab. But why did she go to rehab? Was it because she choose to go to rehab or was it because she was forced to by her family and friends? Speaking from personal experience it's easy to get a user into rehab but ultimately whether or not the rehab is successful depends on the user. Not the family or friends to make the choice to stop using, the user must make this choice themselves. Speaking from personal experience the only person a user can rely on for help is the user themselves and not anyone else but the user. The user must choose to accept help otherwise it's a waste of time. I learn't a long time ago that trying to get a user to quit using is a waste of time if they do not wish to. Only when the user is committed to stop using will they stop using. I know perfectly well that trying to help a user break their habit is a waste of time so i don't bother as anyone who has ever overcome an addiction will tell you it is a solo battle. As for other people letting the user down this is complete crap. The user is responsible for themselves and it's a journey they must make alone if they are to succeed. The user can't blame anyone else except for themselves. The truth is breaking any addiction is a personal journey that only ever works as a solo battle.

 

[Kesa]

Drug uses choose to take drugs but they may not have chosen the drug they are taking. There is very little quality control on illegal drugs ... because they are illegal. During prohibition people went blind and died from drinking bad liquor too - not because they would have died from drinking what they drank if it had been ethanol but because illegal liquor wasn't always reliably ethanol.

People who do drugs are like other people in that they didn't choose the circumstances or environment they were born into nor did they choose the people who were first to influence them in their lives.

On the other hand, people who thought they were doing the best for themselves took drugs that doctors told them they should take and wound up equally as dead because the FDA has abdicated its job preferring that drug companies police themselves. Maybe we should save some scorn for people who trusted their doctors too?

Not all choices are as freely chosen as they seem to be. People who are caught up in illegal drugs may find it hard to quit on many grounds beyond simple addiction including pusher pressure to keep a customer, peer pressure from friends and the unwillingness to leave a social group even if it is destructive, plus they may feel unworthy of a better life since they believe themselves to be scum and so do other people.

They may also feel unable to seek help because they are in many countries held to be criminals - that creates a significant barrier to seeking treatment.

The reason people should care is that by caring they may be able to change some of that.

I don't buy the idea of circumstance being used to justify being addicted. Remember there is no such thing as an accident. All "accidents" are nothing more than human error. Amy chose to take drugs. Amy chose to be in an environment that was riddled in drugs. Amy chose not to change her profession to remove herself from this drug riddled environment. Amy CHOSE not to help herself. Amy CHOSE the life she had. Nothing that resulted in Amys death was accidental. It was human error made by herself.

I also don't buy the idea of peer pressure. I don't think Amy didn't know the difference between right and wrong. She came from a good family who loved her greatly. Peer pressure is a choice that someone makes. Falling for it once is OK but there is really no excuse for staying in that environment of being manipulated when you know the difference between right and wrong which i am convinced Amy did. Again this is human error. I can accept if the person is not able to make this choice then that is truly sad but i wouldn't really call this peer pressure but a form of propaganda.

 

[the_leander]

I don't buy the idea of circumstance being used to justify being addicted. Remember there is no such thing as an accident. All "accidents" are nothing more than human error. Amy chose to take drugs. Amy chose to be in an environment that was riddled in drugs. Amy chose not to change her profession to remove herself from this drug riddled environment. Amy CHOSE not to help herself. Amy CHOSE the life she had. Nothing that resulted in Amys death was accidental. It was human error made by herself.

<snip>

Still not read the document in metalman's link I see.

 

[Kesa]

Still not read the document in metalman's link I see.

Yes i did read it and i think it's a load of crap. What that says is that some people have potential to be drug addicts. But potential is only potential and ultimately means nothing. But i agree that that quote makes it easy to shift the blame onto someone else "I'm addicted but it's not my fault". Don't blame someone else blame yourself.

 

[the_leander]

But potential is only potential and ultimately means nothing.

And that right there sums up your thinking: If it's not black or white, it gets filtered out.

But i agree that that quote makes it easy to shift the blame onto someone else "I'm addicted but it's not my fault". Don't blame someone else blame yourself.

I'm guessing concepts such as spheres of influence mean nothing to you.

 

[redrumloa]

@Kesa
Do you really want to put yourself in the same camp as the God Hates Fags idiots? Really, do you? Dancing on someone's grave when they die, when that person AFAIK did not inflict harm on anyone other than themselves, makes you no better than an assholes at the "Westboro Baptist Church".

She's dead, she cannot defend herself. People are mourning the loss of a loved one. Chances are many if not most in mourning are not abusers. Mourning is for those still alive, not those who have departed. Show some respect

 

[Kesa]

I'm guessing concepts such as spheres of influence mean nothing to you.

The first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem. And part of admitting you have a problem is taking responsibility for your decisions that you have made. Simply blaming someone else is not admitting you have a problem. Yes i think being "black and white" is important in this process as it gives the person less of an opportunity to make excuses.

Amy was not a part of a sphere of influence. She was not being controlled in any way she couldn't have gotten out of if she chose to. Also her family tried to help her which she chose not to accept. It's her fault.

 

[Kesa]

@Kesa
Do you really want to put yourself in the same camp as the God Hates Fags idiots? Really, do you? Dancing on someone's grave when they die, when that person AFAIK did not inflict harm on anyone other than themselves, makes you no better than an assholes at the "Westboro Baptist Church".

She's dead, she cannot defend herself. People are mourning the loss of a loved one. Chances are many if not most in mourning are not abusers. Mourning is for those still alive, not those who have departed. Show some respect

A moderator has spoken that i am out of line so i will now behave (i still think i am right). Karlos has spoken too but he doesn't count because he is a patheticus twatus.

 

[redrumloa]

A moderator has spoken that i am out of line so i will now behave (i still think i am right). Karlos has spoken too but he doesn't count because he is a patheticus twatus.

I am not speaking as a moderator, just as a human being.

 

[Kesa]

I am not speaking as a moderator, just as a human being.

Your human?

 

[Robert]

A moderator has spoken that i am out of line so i will now behave (i still think i am right).

What a cop out. There's nothing but decency and common sense in Red's post and him being a moderator is irrelevant.

Karlos has spoken too but he doesn't count because he is a patheticus twatus.

 

[the_leander]

The first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem. And part of admitting you have a problem is taking responsibility for your decisions that you have made.

We're not talking about how she could have gotten out, but how she got in and how much control she had over her own life.

Yes i think being "black and white" is important in this process as it gives the person less of an opportunity to make excuses.

And you the chance to be intellectually lazy to boot!

Amy was not a part of a sphere of influence.

Spheres of influence apply universally. Way to ignore the point. Then again I am talking to a person who denies even the concept of external pressure being capable of influencing people...

She was not being controlled in any way she couldn't have gotten out of if she chose to.

And more assumptions based on what exactly? Having felt first hand the power of many a drug I will tell you flat out now: You have no clue with regards this.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

I don't buy the idea of circumstance being used to justify being addicted.

No, of course you don't. It would undermine your sense of superiority.

Remember there is no such thing as an accident. All "accidents" are nothing more than human error.

They are due to "human error" but they are still accidents. The particular human failing may be the unforgivable sin of not being prepared for the failure of a tire while driving at a speed that is unsafe to drive at when a tire fails (or perhaps the failing is in not having the superhuman reflexes required to stay on the road under such circumstances). When the world diverges from our expectations beyond our ability to react, an accident occurs. Not all eventualities can be foreseen.

Amy chose to take drugs. Amy chose to be in an environment that was riddled in drugs. [...]

Hypothetical: (Just saying it first so you won't have to)
Someone chooses to balance on a bridge railing - perhaps they've been dared - but they believe that they are capable and can handle it.

a) They succeed, have a bit of fun, vindicate their high opinion of their abilities. They choose to get down and life goes on.

b) They fall onto the bridge deck. It is apparent that they didn't have the required skills and they are humbled but realize that they were lucky. They choose not to do that again and life goes on.

c) They fall into the space over which the bridge stretches and begin to descend accelerating at about ten meters per second per second towards a rocky surface some considerable distance below. They choose to ... well, it really doesn't matter what they choose now because they don't have the ability to act on any choice they may make. They know that they are in trouble but are just not capable of carrying out any course of action they might choose.

I also don't buy the idea of peer pressure.

It seems like there are a lot of things that you don't buy. It sounds like you have been lucky enough not to have been tested by the fates. The lucky often assume that their good luck is due to their superior abilities. Sometimes it really is just luck. Why not go tell all the parents of the dead kids in Norway what losers their children were. If they hadn't chosen to stand where the bullets were going they'd still be alive, wouldn't they?

 

[cecilia]

Does anyone ever mention the industry that takes in these creative emotional people, puts them through the roller coaster and make a huge amount of money off them and then tosses them away when they are wrung out? That machine and the people that run it to use other people's talents for enormous profit (and sue grandma's for thousands of dollars for having unsecured wireless routers) and will just wash their hands of it all at the end of the day apparently never has any responsibility for the people it uses. The star maker machinery gets off scot free.

oh, I notice all right
having been strong (and sober) enough to avoid the worse pitfalls of Los Angeles I can say with complete authority that such "machines" are soulless.

the trick is to know when someone is bullshitting you and when you actually meet a human being. I have enough street smarts to spot both quite easily, so I never got ripped off in LA.
Still, even the strong can feel the fangs of the vampire on their skin. and it's not pleasant.

as I never knew Winehouse personally I have no idea how she got to this point. I know it very complicated. I have known people who are addicted - some spending years going back and forth sober, on drugs, sober, on drugs, sober, on drugs, etc.
Some of them take a long time to get control. But if they do...it's worth it.

As I have often said, I am simply lucky that I never had to deal with this in any way. just plain lucky. not superior, just lucky