Georgia, the Olympics, the US armada and Iran

[FluffyMcDeath]

That weapons report hasn't appeared anywhere else. As the Russians have been attacking journalists, the fog of war is thicker than usual. The Georgia PR machine seems to be doing a rather better job than the Russians.

The Georgian PR machine is American. You will doubtless see more of their stuff in the West. Russia's point of view will play more in Russia. The fact that Ossetia broke away from Georgia and has been "independent" since 1991 - more or less under Russian protection but it was patrolled by a joint peace keeping force - is not as known in the West as it is in Russia. The Russian report that Georgian peacekeepers started shooting at Russian peace keepers, killing 11, may be propaganda though it may be true. The Georgians certainly got a good and quick start on the fighting though. Of course, they must have been confident in US backing or they were just crazy if they thought Russia would stay out since the Russians have been holding big visible exercises nearby just to let everyone know how they felt.

It'll be interesting to see what will happen with the Georgian-proper territory that the Russians have (apparently) occupied. If Russia gets away with this, and I think they will, the next place on their shopping list will be Ukraine. Most countries in Europe should be extremely alarmed.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think you should go look at a map.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

That weapons report hasn't appeared anywhere else. As the Russians have been attacking journalists, the fog of war is thicker than usual. The Georgia PR machine seems to be doing a rather better job than the Russians.

The Georgian PR machine is American. You will doubtless see more of their stuff in the West. Russia's point of view will play more in Russia. The fact that Ossetia broke away from Georgia and has been "independent" since 1991 - more or less under Russian protection but it was patrolled by a joint peace keeping force - is not as known in the West as it is in Russia. The Russian report that Georgian peacekeepers started shooting at Russian peace keepers, killing 11, may be propaganda though it may be true. The Georgians certainly got a good and quick start on the fighting though. Of course, they must have been confident in US backing or they were just crazy if they thought Russia would stay out since the Russians have been holding big visible exercises nearby just to let everyone know how they felt.

It'll be interesting to see what will happen with the Georgian-proper territory that the Russians have (apparently) occupied. If Russia gets away with this, and I think they will, the next place on their shopping list will be Ukraine. Most countries in Europe should be extremely alarmed.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think you should go look at a map.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

That weapons report hasn't appeared anywhere else. As the Russians have been attacking journalists, the fog of war is thicker than usual. The Georgia PR machine seems to be doing a rather better job than the Russians.

The Georgian PR machine is American. You will doubtless see more of their stuff in the West. Russia's point of view will play more in Russia. The fact that Ossetia broke away from Georgia and has been "independent" since 1991 - more or less under Russian protection but it was patrolled by a joint peace keeping force - is not as known in the West as it is in Russia. The Russian report that Georgian peacekeepers started shooting at Russian peace keepers, killing 11, may be propaganda though it may be true. The Georgians certainly got a good and quick start on the fighting though. Of course, they must have been confident in US backing or they were just crazy if they thought Russia would stay out since the Russians have been holding big visible exercises nearby just to let everyone know how they felt.

It'll be interesting to see what will happen with the Georgian-proper territory that the Russians have (apparently) occupied. If Russia gets away with this, and I think they will, the next place on their shopping list will be Ukraine. Most countries in Europe should be extremely alarmed.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think you should go look at a map.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

That weapons report hasn't appeared anywhere else. As the Russians have been attacking journalists, the fog of war is thicker than usual. The Georgia PR machine seems to be doing a rather better job than the Russians.

The Georgian PR machine is American. You will doubtless see more of their stuff in the West. Russia's point of view will play more in Russia. The fact that Ossetia broke away from Georgia and has been "independent" since 1991 - more or less under Russian protection but it was patrolled by a joint peace keeping force - is not as known in the West as it is in Russia. The Russian report that Georgian peacekeepers started shooting at Russian peace keepers, killing 11, may be propaganda though it may be true. The Georgians certainly got a good and quick start on the fighting though. Of course, they must have been confident in US backing or they were just crazy if they thought Russia would stay out since the Russians have been holding big visible exercises nearby just to let everyone know how they felt.

It'll be interesting to see what will happen with the Georgian-proper territory that the Russians have (apparently) occupied. If Russia gets away with this, and I think they will, the next place on their shopping list will be Ukraine. Most countries in Europe should be extremely alarmed.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think you should go look at a map.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

That weapons report hasn't appeared anywhere else. As the Russians have been attacking journalists, the fog of war is thicker than usual. The Georgia PR machine seems to be doing a rather better job than the Russians.

The Georgian PR machine is American. You will doubtless see more of their stuff in the West. Russia's point of view will play more in Russia. The fact that Ossetia broke away from Georgia and has been "independent" since 1991 - more or less under Russian protection but it was patrolled by a joint peace keeping force - is not as known in the West as it is in Russia. The Russian report that Georgian peacekeepers started shooting at Russian peace keepers, killing 11, may be propaganda though it may be true. The Georgians certainly got a good and quick start on the fighting though. Of course, they must have been confident in US backing or they were just crazy if they thought Russia would stay out since the Russians have been holding big visible exercises nearby just to let everyone know how they felt.

It'll be interesting to see what will happen with the Georgian-proper territory that the Russians have (apparently) occupied. If Russia gets away with this, and I think they will, the next place on their shopping list will be Ukraine. Most countries in Europe should be extremely alarmed.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think you should go look at a map.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

That weapons report hasn't appeared anywhere else. As the Russians have been attacking journalists, the fog of war is thicker than usual. The Georgia PR machine seems to be doing a rather better job than the Russians.

The Georgian PR machine is American. You will doubtless see more of their stuff in the West. Russia's point of view will play more in Russia. The fact that Ossetia broke away from Georgia and has been "independent" since 1991 - more or less under Russian protection but it was patrolled by a joint peace keeping force - is not as known in the West as it is in Russia. The Russian report that Georgian peacekeepers started shooting at Russian peace keepers, killing 11, may be propaganda though it may be true. The Georgians certainly got a good and quick start on the fighting though. Of course, they must have been confident in US backing or they were just crazy if they thought Russia would stay out since the Russians have been holding big visible exercises nearby just to let everyone know how they felt.

It'll be interesting to see what will happen with the Georgian-proper territory that the Russians have (apparently) occupied. If Russia gets away with this, and I think they will, the next place on their shopping list will be Ukraine. Most countries in Europe should be extremely alarmed.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think you should go look at a map.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

This period is not eqivalent to the Russian puppet period. Yes, since 2003 they've turned westward, but the corruption, election-rigging and other autocratic tendencies that are typical of a soviet republic (as Moldova or Belarus could be described today) has been stamped out, or at least making efforts in that direction.

Saakashvili? The guy that's had all his political rivals thrown in jail? He's cleaning up corruption?

Just because you change one corrupt autocrat for another doesn't mean you're addressing corruption simply because one's more willing to indulge in corruption with your friends than with your enemies.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

This period is not eqivalent to the Russian puppet period. Yes, since 2003 they've turned westward, but the corruption, election-rigging and other autocratic tendencies that are typical of a soviet republic (as Moldova or Belarus could be described today) has been stamped out, or at least making efforts in that direction.

Saakashvili? The guy that's had all his political rivals thrown in jail? He's cleaning up corruption?

Just because you change one corrupt autocrat for another doesn't mean you're addressing corruption simply because one's more willing to indulge in corruption with your friends than with your enemies.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

This period is not eqivalent to the Russian puppet period. Yes, since 2003 they've turned westward, but the corruption, election-rigging and other autocratic tendencies that are typical of a soviet republic (as Moldova or Belarus could be described today) has been stamped out, or at least making efforts in that direction.

Saakashvili? The guy that's had all his political rivals thrown in jail? He's cleaning up corruption?

Just because you change one corrupt autocrat for another doesn't mean you're addressing corruption simply because one's more willing to indulge in corruption with your friends than with your enemies.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

This period is not eqivalent to the Russian puppet period. Yes, since 2003 they've turned westward, but the corruption, election-rigging and other autocratic tendencies that are typical of a soviet republic (as Moldova or Belarus could be described today) has been stamped out, or at least making efforts in that direction.

Saakashvili? The guy that's had all his political rivals thrown in jail? He's cleaning up corruption?

Just because you change one corrupt autocrat for another doesn't mean you're addressing corruption simply because one's more willing to indulge in corruption with your friends than with your enemies.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

This period is not eqivalent to the Russian puppet period. Yes, since 2003 they've turned westward, but the corruption, election-rigging and other autocratic tendencies that are typical of a soviet republic (as Moldova or Belarus could be described today) has been stamped out, or at least making efforts in that direction.

Saakashvili? The guy that's had all his political rivals thrown in jail? He's cleaning up corruption?

Just because you change one corrupt autocrat for another doesn't mean you're addressing corruption simply because one's more willing to indulge in corruption with your friends than with your enemies.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

This period is not eqivalent to the Russian puppet period. Yes, since 2003 they've turned westward, but the corruption, election-rigging and other autocratic tendencies that are typical of a soviet republic (as Moldova or Belarus could be described today) has been stamped out, or at least making efforts in that direction.

Saakashvili? The guy that's had all his political rivals thrown in jail? He's cleaning up corruption?

Just because you change one corrupt autocrat for another doesn't mean you're addressing corruption simply because one's more willing to indulge in corruption with your friends than with your enemies.

 

[Robert]

Real mess and difficult to know what's really going on.

From where I'm sitting the initial Russian response was entirely predictable (what on earth were the Georgian government thinking would happen when they started shelling a city?) but if reports that they are occupying undisputed areas are true, it's very worrying.

 

[Robert]

Real mess and difficult to know what's really going on.

From where I'm sitting the initial Russian response was entirely predictable (what on earth were the Georgian government thinking would happen when they started shelling a city?) but if reports that they are occupying undisputed areas are true, it's very worrying.

 

[Robert]

Real mess and difficult to know what's really going on.

From where I'm sitting the initial Russian response was entirely predictable (what on earth were the Georgian government thinking would happen when they started shelling a city?) but if reports that they are occupying undisputed areas are true, it's very worrying.

 

[Robert]

Real mess and difficult to know what's really going on.

From where I'm sitting the initial Russian response was entirely predictable (what on earth were the Georgian government thinking would happen when they started shelling a city?) but if reports that they are occupying undisputed areas are true, it's very worrying.

 

[Robert]

Real mess and difficult to know what's really going on.

From where I'm sitting the initial Russian response was entirely predictable (what on earth were the Georgian government thinking would happen when they started shelling a city?) but if reports that they are occupying undisputed areas are true, it's very worrying.

 

[Robert]

Real mess and difficult to know what's really going on.

From where I'm sitting the initial Russian response was entirely predictable (what on earth were the Georgian government thinking would happen when they started shelling a city?) but if reports that they are occupying undisputed areas are true, it's very worrying.

 

[smithy]

That weapons report hasn't appeared anywhere else. As the Russians have been attacking journalists, the fog of war is thicker than usual. The Georgia PR machine seems to be doing a rather better job than the Russians.

The Georgian PR machine is American. You will doubtless see more of their stuff in the West. Russia's point of view will play more in Russia.

Is that the same American PR machine that ran Israel's PR-disaster during their Hezbollah War in 2006? Just because the PR machine is American, it's not guarenteed to win a PR war.

The fact that Ossetia broke away from Georgia and has been "independent" since 1991 - more or less under Russian protection but it was patrolled by a joint peace keeping force - is not as known in the West as it is in Russia. The Russian report that Georgian peacekeepers started shooting at Russian peace keepers, killing 11, may be propaganda though it may be true. The Georgians certainly got a good and quick start on the fighting though. Of course, they must have been confident in US backing or they were just crazy if they thought Russia would stay out since the Russians have been holding big visible exercises nearby just to let everyone know how they felt.

To suggest that Georgia got a good 'start' as if this was a surprise attack is wrong. Russia didn't mobilize these thousands of troops, tanks and aircraft over the weekend - the 'joint' peacekeeping force has seen Russia massing troops and equipment all year. Back in April, NATO was warning Russia about the troop buildup in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. From this it would seem that both sides have been planning for a conflict for a long time.

Georgia has made 2 fatal mistakes. They baited Russia a little bit too much and have got a nasty surprise in return. The second mistake was to think that NATO troops would roll in to help, or an American carrier would arrive in the Black Sea. Georgia, it would seem, is lower in the food chain than Israel or Taiwan. We've not seen very much at all beyond a few words. The US has can only lose from a conflict here - they can't get involved because if it escalates they don't have the resources what with being in Iraq.

[quote:15f4827o]
It'll be interesting to see what will happen with the Georgian-proper territory that the Russians have (apparently) occupied. If Russia gets away with this, and I think they will, the next place on their shopping list will be Ukraine. Most countries in Europe should be extremely alarmed.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think you should go look at a map.[/quote:15f4827o]

Not sure what you mean? I shall explain myself further:

1. Russia has admitted it is beyond the breakaway territories.

2. Ukraine's Crimea region can be strongly compared with South Ossetia. A semi-autonomous population with a large Russian population. Ukraine is also out of favour with Putin because it's turned west.

Khrushchev signed it over to Ukraine in the 50s and the so-called 'Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership' by which Russia recognized the present borders of Ukraine is going to expire in December 2008.

3. Finally, we have this from other worried European nations:

We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO– Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia...

 

[smithy]

That weapons report hasn't appeared anywhere else. As the Russians have been attacking journalists, the fog of war is thicker than usual. The Georgia PR machine seems to be doing a rather better job than the Russians.

The Georgian PR machine is American. You will doubtless see more of their stuff in the West. Russia's point of view will play more in Russia.

Is that the same American PR machine that ran Israel's PR-disaster during their Hezbollah War in 2006? Just because the PR machine is American, it's not guarenteed to win a PR war.

The fact that Ossetia broke away from Georgia and has been "independent" since 1991 - more or less under Russian protection but it was patrolled by a joint peace keeping force - is not as known in the West as it is in Russia. The Russian report that Georgian peacekeepers started shooting at Russian peace keepers, killing 11, may be propaganda though it may be true. The Georgians certainly got a good and quick start on the fighting though. Of course, they must have been confident in US backing or they were just crazy if they thought Russia would stay out since the Russians have been holding big visible exercises nearby just to let everyone know how they felt.

To suggest that Georgia got a good 'start' as if this was a surprise attack is wrong. Russia didn't mobilize these thousands of troops, tanks and aircraft over the weekend - the 'joint' peacekeeping force has seen Russia massing troops and equipment all year. Back in April, NATO was warning Russia about the troop buildup in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. From this it would seem that both sides have been planning for a conflict for a long time.

Georgia has made 2 fatal mistakes. They baited Russia a little bit too much and have got a nasty surprise in return. The second mistake was to think that NATO troops would roll in to help, or an American carrier would arrive in the Black Sea. Georgia, it would seem, is lower in the food chain than Israel or Taiwan. We've not seen very much at all beyond a few words. The US has can only lose from a conflict here - they can't get involved because if it escalates they don't have the resources what with being in Iraq.

[quote:15f4827o]
It'll be interesting to see what will happen with the Georgian-proper territory that the Russians have (apparently) occupied. If Russia gets away with this, and I think they will, the next place on their shopping list will be Ukraine. Most countries in Europe should be extremely alarmed.

Oh, I don't know about that. I think you should go look at a map.[/quote:15f4827o]

Not sure what you mean? I shall explain myself further:

1. Russia has admitted it is beyond the breakaway territories.

2. Ukraine's Crimea region can be strongly compared with South Ossetia. A semi-autonomous population with a large Russian population. Ukraine is also out of favour with Putin because it's turned west.

Khrushchev signed it over to Ukraine in the 50s and the so-called 'Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership' by which Russia recognized the present borders of Ukraine is going to expire in December 2008.

3. Finally, we have this from other worried European nations:

We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO– Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia...