Is cycle 24 stalling?

Dammy said:
Pity the past 30 years hasn't proven your scam to be real.
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It's been getting hotter over the past 30 years. But you seem so sure of your "solar" theory - why don't you go and get the sunspot data (oh, wait - graphs are posted) and see how well that lines up with the temperature data over the last century. The CO2 data is also available. Two of those curves go together much better than the other one. The planet is still sensitive to solar output but the sensitivity is being changed.
 
Really the anti-scientists are coming around. First the tried to deny the warming. Now we see Santorum and others claiming it can't possibly be right because it conflicts with the bible. So what we are seeing is the first two levels of Kubler-Ross Stages of Denial has been over come. Now that those rubes wont work they are trying to claim its all natural and man has no impact. This would be the 3rd stage, Bargaining. As they go through their Depression in a few decades the anti-scientific will come to acceptance.
 
Glaucus said:
I agree with Fluffy here, if there's any scam going on it's by the huge energy corporations out there. Shame on you Red for being duped so easily.
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Who exactly do you think stands to profit BIG TIME from the global warming scam? Joe Sixpack or huge energy corporations? This should be easy enough to answer if you think this through for a minute;)
 
redrumloa said:
Who exactly do you think stands to profit BIG TIME from the global warming scam? Joe Sixpack or huge energy corporations? This should be easy enough to answer if you think this through for a minute;)
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I think you got that backwards there Red. I'm pretty sure the energy sellers would rather you buy more energy instead of less of it. I don't see how the big energy sellers will make a killing when people do all they can to reduce their carbon foot print.
 
exactly. the only people making a profit are the oil companies
 
Glaucus said:
I think you got that backwards there Red. I'm pretty sure the energy sellers would rather you buy more energy instead of less of it. I don't see how the big energy sellers will make a killing when people do all they can to reduce their carbon foot print.
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This is where you guys have it wrong.What happens when big energy's cost of business goes up? They raise prices. What happens when governments push alternative energy? The cost gets pushed on to the taxpayer and customers. Who will be trading carbon credits? Really, read deep into this and follow the money. The concept that any of this green stuff will harm big energy companies is laughable.

Here's an example, Florida Power and Light which is my (market monopoly) power company. When they want to build a new power plant, regulators allow the cost to be passed on to consumers. When the state mandates X-amount of green energy implemented, regulators allow the cost to be passed on to consumers. All risk is removed completely, consumers pay for everything up front. If/when green energy is cost effective for the utility, they do not lower utility bills, they ask for a rate increase and get it automatically. FPL is just one example. Hell, they do such a poor job maintain their infrastructure that after Hurricane Wilma most of their customers were without power for weeks. Instead of letting FPL lose revenue for doing such a piss-poor job, they let FPL charge customers a surcharge fee to make up for lost revenue! These mega companies are so far in bed with corrupt politicians, it is a sick joke.
 
Sounds to me like your problems with FPL have nothing to do "green" energy really, but corruption. Monopolies like that don't need a "green" power scam to screw you over, the monopoly + bought politicians does that already.

But you completely failed to link any of that to researchers around the globe.
 
redrumloa said:
Instead of letting FPL lose revenue for doing such a piss-poor job, they let FPL charge customers a surcharge fee to make up for lost revenue! These mega companies are so far in bed with corrupt politicians, it is a sick joke.
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You are mixing up science with politics. It's not that scientists aren't political or that scientists aren't corruptible but that there is more to science than just the people that do it. After a few decades major issues like this tend to settle out. Just about anybody can do the earth science, some of which is expensive but other parts of it are accessible to anyone - the planet isn't protected by patents, if you are familiar with the scientific principles you can core the ice or lakes, look at fossil plankton, study pollen, count tree rings or just spot birds. The existing data set is large and extensive and as with anything real contains much noise but the signal is strong. The volume of data and the amount of time for which it has been collected would be impossible to generate falsely as it would also have to line up with reality - and while you position may be that it doesn't that is probably because you haven't looked at much of it nor of the world but have chosen to believe someone with a vested interest in the status quo. Evolution really did happen too but certain religious groups need their book to be true so they deny evolution - their income depends on it. The oil companies sell carbon emissions, not directly, but as a by-product of oil when people use it to get what they really need: power. If people find other ways to get power of find that they can use less power to do the same thing then that affects oil company income.

If you think that what energy companies really really want is people cutting back on their energy use then I have to say that you are promoting a very strange business model. Large energy companies want people to use lots of energy and they want people to use lots of energy that they control. If you can get around town on a small electric vehicle which you charge from solar panels that you own then the oil companies are not happy. If you are going to use electric propulsion then at the least they want you to use hydrogen from an infrastructure that they control with fueling stations and pipelines and things that are expensive to build so that upstarts can be kept out.

The financial institutions that would like to trade the carbon credits - sure they think that's a great idea, but they don't depend on it. Look, they launder drug money now and they are quite happy with the oil companies' money and with the oil futures market which they skim from. Carbon credits and playing energy transactions kind of compete against each other.

Whatever the businesses are that see an opportunity to make some money on "green", there are other, older, establishment companies that prefer the status quo. Look at the entertainment industry for an example. Did they rush in to take advantage of the new markets that the internet was opening up? No, they worked to crush the internet and they still do. Would the oil companies be the ones to move into a new energy paradigm? No, they are fighting any hint of change as it is not in their interests. But whatever the big battles are that the money is having over how and who will dominate the future, the science for those guys is just a back story to promote or denigrate as will help them the best. The science itself remains the science.
 
redrumloa said:
Who exactly do you think stands to profit BIG TIME from the global warming scam? Joe Sixpack or huge energy corporations? This should be easy enough to answer if you think this through for a minute;)
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Yes it is easy to answer if you think it through so perhaps you could explain why you haven't bothered to think it through?

Then again, you inadvertently answered it yourself:
The corporations benefit from the pretence that global warming is a scam.
The attempts to discredit science are pretty transparent.
Some parallels can be drawn with the old "tobacco doesn't cause cancer" nonsense. Corporations discrediting science to protect profits. Yet you believe the corporations and think the overwhelming majority of the world's scientists are involved in a scam to steal your money.

I'm not even sure why I care. The worst effects will happen after I'm dead and, given that I have no weans and don't believe in any sort of afterlife, none of it will make the slightest bit of difference to me. (Actually, now that I've typed that, why should I give toss? Maybe I'll switch to your side just for lulz. :p)

You, on the other hand, have children to think about.
The idea that anyone with children thinks the best thing to do for their future is to pump more filth into the atmosphere is truly baffling.
Even if the evidence for global warming was incredibly flimsy it would be baffling.
The evidence is not incredibly flimsy.
It is not even remotely flimsy.
On the contrary, it is compelling to the point that it's now only a few "outliers" that dispute it.
 
redrumloa said:
That is exactly my point...
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Ah. I should have realized that you wouldn't have been able to see that as a sarcastic comment. Therefore I will state it explicitly now. When I said "Those guys don't have anything to fear from people finding alternatives to oil." I was being sarcastic.

Their business is oil and without it they have no business, no profits, no income and no power.
 
You are mixing up science with politics.
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If you think that what energy companies really really want is people cutting back on their energy use then I have to say that you are promoting a very strange business model.
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Of course, think about it. Energy companies sell less product, at a much higher prices. Ever heard of the term profit margin? How about crack spread?

If you can get around town on a small electric vehicle which you charge from solar panels that you own then the oil companies are not happy.
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This is a dream of mine, but not because I want to hug a tree. The reason I refuse to divorce political corruption is because people have to see what is going on for what it is. Haven't you seen? Oil companies "diversifying" beyond oil and into "green" areas? Just wait, the day will come that privately owned solar systems are made illegal and solar farms are owned by mega energy companies.
 
redrumloa said:
Laughing at your own ignorance?
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Perhaps.

Perhaps I was ignorant of this possibility:
that you'd claim that corporations think it's a good idea to promote a situation where people need less of their product, just so they could sell less of it but at a higher price?

Perhaps.
 
redrumloa said:
Of course, think about it. Energy companies sell less product, at a much higher prices. Ever heard of the term profit margin?
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Uh huh. But that's going to happen anyway since there is more demand now for what is already out there. Americans have been slammed by the financial collapse and they are buying less but there are still plenty of other buyers out there in the world. The problem for the oil producers is that the higher the oil price the less people consume and the more they look to alternatives. That's why over the last few decades OPEC was always turning on the taps when the price went too high - they didn't want customers leaving and finding alternatives.

However, as oil gets harder to extract at the rate required (the rate is always increasing) the price goes up anyway. Greening would cut the demand and the oil companies would need to perpetually cut back production to maintain the price. If nobody needed oil it would be tough to sell the stuff at any price. The oil companies need us to keep needing oil and they don't want anyone stepping in to encourage people to get independent.

Yes, the oil companies are dangling the carrot of "green" but they aren't in a hurry to get there and certainly not until they have an alternative that they can control no matter how inefficient it is. That's why, as you note, they would rather kill private solar panels than see everyone get a set. On the plus side, if I filled my roof with panels I would still be miles off of my current usage. :) Until I can get my family to wear a sweater in winter and turn out the damn lights I'm going to depend on the energy companies.
 
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