Obama's "Death Panels" to kill elderly and disabled?

[redrumloa]

I'm surprised this has not come up yet. Yes, the liberal media is barely touching the subject and when they do the idea is scoffed at. Me? I doubt Obama's intention is to euthanize elderly people and the disabled, but I do fear the end result could do such a thing.

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/20 ... ath-panel/

While Emanuel does not use the term “death panel,” Palin put that term in quotation marks to signify the concept of medical decisions based on the perceived societal worth of an individual, not literally a “death panel.” And in so doing, Palin was true to Dr. Emanuel’s concept of a system which

[quote:29vxderh] considers prognosis, since its aim is to achieve complete lives. A young person with a poor prognosis has had a few life-years but lacks the potential to live a complete life. Considering prognosis forestalls the concern the disproportionately large amounts of resources will be directed to young people with poor prognoses. When the worst-off can benefit only slightly while better-off people could benefit greatly, allocating to the better-off is often justifiable….When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.

Put together the concepts of prognosis and age, and Dr. Emanuel’s proposal reasonably could be construed as advocating the withholding of some level of medical treatment (probably not basic care, but likely expensive advanced care) to a baby born with Down Syndrome. You may not like this implication, but it is Dr. Emanuel’s implication not Palin’s.[/quote:29vxderh]

Flame on!

 

[redrumloa]

A view from the other side of the pond.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/ ... 4&src=news

The comment at the end is slightly misleading, paraphrasing "there are 56 million in the us, the richest nation in the world, without health insurance".That may be true, but no emergency room may turn patients away. Not health care and not a perfect thing but a fact omitted.

 

[faethor]

I'm surprised this has not come up yet. Yes, the liberal media is barely touching the subject and when they do the idea is scoffed at. Me? I doubt Obama's intention is to euthanize elderly people and the disabled, but I do fear the end result could do such a thing.

The liberal media should cover the lie? Sometimes covering untruths provides undue justification for the ill-informed.

 

[redrumloa]

The liberal media should cover the lie? Sometimes covering untruths provides undue justification for the ill-informed.

There is no health care bill? Wow, thanks for clearing that one up! Phew! :shocked:

 

[cecilia]

the whole 'death squads' is bullshit

In fact, the provision in the bill would allow Medicare to pay doctors for voluntary counseling sessions that address end-of-life issues. The conversations between doctor and patient would include living wills, making a close relative or a trusted friend your health care proxy, learning about hospice as an option for the terminally ill, and information about pain medications for people suffering chronic discomfort.

[sarcasim]
yeah, imagine that! talking to people about reality and helping them through important things they need to know.

EVIL!!!

[/sarcasim]

 

[metalman]

the whole 'death squads' is bullshit

In fact, the provision in the bill would allow Medicare to pay doctors for voluntary counseling sessions that address end-of-life issues. The conversations between doctor and patient would include living wills, making a close relative or a trusted friend your health care proxy, learning about hospice as an option for the terminally ill, and information about pain medications for people suffering chronic discomfort.

[sarcasim]
yeah, imagine that! talking to people about reality and helping them through important things they need to know.

EVIL!!!
[/sarcasim]

Don't worry Peter Singer, prophet of Utilitarian Bioethics is advising Dr. Obama

During the next 35 years, the traditional view of the sanctity of human life will collapse under pressure from scientific, technological, and demographic developments. By 2040, it may be that only a rump of hard-core, know-nothing religious fundamentalists will defend the view that every human life, from conception to death, is sacrosanct.

All I'm saying is let's take the example of something like diabetes, one of --- a disease that's skyrocketing, partly because of obesity, partly because it's not treated as effectively as it could be. Right now if we paid a family -- if a family care physician works with his or her patient to help them lose weight, modify diet, monitors whether they're taking their medications in a timely fashion, they might get reimbursed a pittance.

But if that same diabetic ends up getting their foot amputated, that's $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 -- immediately the surgeon is reimbursed. Well, why not make sure that we're also reimbursing the care that prevents the amputation, right? That will save us money. (Applause.)

Maybe we should death counsel the obese, they're all about to become disabled one-foot diabetics anyway.

(the maximum allowable surgical fee for an amputation, under Medicare, now, is several hundred dollars.)

 

[Fade]

From Obama: link

quote
"And finally, this is important, we will require insurance companies to cover routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies because there’s no reason we shouldn’t be catching diseases like breast cancer and prostate cancer on the front end."

Maybe if he could get his head out of his ass, he would have room for a correctly done prostate exam.

 

[faethor]

Don't worry Peter Singer, prophet of Utilitarian Bioethics is advising Dr. Obama
During the next 35 years, the traditional view of the sanctity of human life will collapse under pressure from scientific, technological, and demographic developments. By 2040, it may be that only a rump of hard-core, know-nothing religious fundamentalists will defend the view that every human life, from conception to death, is sacrosanct.

Yeah only the ultra religions will protect human life. We know how well the crusades proved to be sacrosanct. Or the religious individuals support life.

The long legal battle over the removal of Terri Schiavo’s feeding tube led President George W. Bush and the U.S. Congress to intervene, both seeking to keep her alive. Yet the American public surprised many pundits by refusing to support this intervention

Wow! You mean to tell me the Republicans who oppose US medical care because the government would be too interving in our lives decided to have the governement intervene in someone's life? BTW I was very glad to see the public respond that laws about 1 person are unconstitutional, because they frickin' are!

the case produced a surge in the number of people declaring they did not wish to be kept alive in a situation such as Schiavo’s.

-- I support the right of self determinination. If anything a person has the right to determine when they can shift off this mortal coil. Which BTW C included a good posting explaining how this is supported in the legislation.

Jesus talks more about care of the poor and sick than anything having to do with abortion or homosexuality. I expected to see the Republicans convince the "Christians" that care of the poor and sick is something that's bad. Glad to see they didn't let me down.

 

[redrumloa]

I expected to see the Republicans convince the "Christians" that care of the poor and sick is something that's bad. Glad to see they didn't let me down.

Taking everyone who has a rock solid private plan and throwing them into a bureaucratic maze of a public plan that has severe rationing and mandatory "wellness programs" is NOT taking care of the sick and the poor. I know you claim your experience recent at the DMV was perfect, I find that hard to believe but maybe it was an an anomaly. At my day job I literally deal with the Federal G0v on a daily basis. The level of waste, mismanagement and incompetence is staggering. Our g0v is completely incapable of running a public health care plan without bankrupting the entire country, assuming it is not already bankrupt that is.

 

[Glaucus]

The Republican party should seriously consider changing it's name to the Scaredy Cat party, as it seems they're nothing more then fear mongers who seem to be scared of everything including their own shadow.

 

[faethor]

Taking everyone who has a rock solid private plan and throwing them into a bureaucratic maze of a public plan that has severe rationing and mandatory "wellness programs" is NOT taking care of the sick and the poor.

Well and there's the problem. Nothing is requiring you to give up your private plan and switch to the public plan. It's another plan on the market of which you can choose. Instead of the government mandating a single healthcare plan they are instead going into the 'free market' with their own product and using market competition. If it's the morass you portend then it'll fail and no one will buy in...

As for the government being a complete failure that's bs. 911 responds, police catch criminals, firemen snuff fires, roads are maintained, traffic flows as signals work, countries are invaded even 2 at a time, food and water quality is improved and mainted through inspections, drugs are ensured to be working, it's ensuring large environmental areas such as forestlands and parks... It's also competent enough to orchestrate 911 attacks, hide UFOs, and ensure bigfoot is kept away from the public. :wink:

 

[Glaucus]

Not to mention putting a man on the moon.

 

[redrumloa]

Well and there's the problem. Nothing is requiring you to give up your private plan and switch to the public plan. It's another plan on the market of which you can choose. Instead of the government mandating a single healthcare plan they are instead going into the 'free market' with their own product and using market competition. If it's the morass you portend then it'll fail and no one will buy in...

You don't really believe that will be the end result, do you? There is a reason Walmart is pushing the public plan so hard. The money has to come from somewhere. Given the choice between private an public, the vast majority of people in the work force will chose the private option. The public plan will have to be funded through taxation, crushing taxation. Instead of paying twice, there will be a shift to the public plan and private plans will be only in the realm of the elite, moving one step closer to the limousine liberal's utopia of a 2 class system. Get rid of that damn pesky middle class once and for all.

As for the government being a complete failure that's bs. 911 responds, police catch criminals, firemen snuff fires, roads are maintained, traffic flows as signals work, countries are invaded even 2 at a time, food and water quality is improved and mainted through inspections, drugs are ensured to be working, it's ensuring large environmental areas such as forestlands and parks...

911, police and fire depts are a whole different story. They are independently run and only get funding from the gov. That said, there are certainly examples of these departments big fat bloated pigs. Does a regular traffic officer need to have a starting pay of 100K+ *AND* have a V8 powered take home car while living 90+ miles away? Remember, gas down here was about $5/gal a year ago. Should a fire fighter be able to work ~12 years and retire with a pension that lasts the rest of his life? Does a police departments need to replace police cars every single year? I don't know about up there, but down here the waste is staggering.

It's also competent enough to orchestrate 911 attacks, hide UFOs, and ensure bigfoot is kept away from the public. :wink:

I don't agree with the nuts on the 911 attacks and BigFoot is probably hiding from the gov, but they sure do hide UFOs very good ;-)

 

[faethor]

You don't really believe that will be the end result, do you?

Well and there's the gist what do we believe will be the result. There are other nations in existence with government and private healthcare. There is no reason we couldn't have both.

The public plan will have to be funded through taxation, crushing taxation.

Any medical plan has to be funded. So if I pay crusingingly for taxes or private it doesn't really matter. It's still crushing. For a couple of current example, we pay healthcare now to private industries. The middleman takes about a 30% 'processing fee' cut. Medicare processes this with about a 3% 'processing fee' cut.

moving one step closer to the limousine liberal's utopia of a 2 class system

If you were paying attention to the supply side economics of the last 30+ years -- Republicans are doing a great job of this themselves.

911, police and fire depts are a whole different story. They are independently run and only get funding from the gov.

Here they are government run and government employees. So they are privately run companies in your area? We saw how the private companies took away guns during Katrina. I'd be more worried if these were private.

Does a regular traffic officer need to have a starting pay of 100K

Here they aren't. The County Sheriff is often the highest paid and he's just over 100K. Of course in bigger Counties they are paid more. Our County's squads are replaced on a 4-5 year cycle. Cars are also shared so few bring one home cuz there's another cop with a nightshift who needs the car. But, likewise does the President of UHC need to make $102K per hour? You could hire 2000 cops instead. See the government is getting the job done more cost effectively. :wink:

BTW -- The rich giving up something to help the poor is what Jesus taught. Along with the nations of the world being judged before God. How to scare a Christian? Jesus was a commie not a capitalist. Read the Bible sometime.

 

[redrumloa]

Any medical plan has to be funded. So if I pay crusingingly for taxes or private it doesn't really matter. It's still crushing. For a couple of current example, we pay healthcare now to private industries. The middleman takes about a 30% 'processing fee' cut. Medicare processes this with about a 3% 'processing fee' cut.

Problem is you can't have both. Who can afford to pay a high fee to a private plan AND pay a crushing tax for an unused public plan.

If you were paying attention to the supply side economics of the last 30+ years -- Republicans are doing a great job of this themselves.

Not exactly, but that is for another thread.

BTW -- The rich giving up something to help the poor is what Jesus taught. Along with the nations of the world being judged before God. How to scare a Christian? Jesus was a commie not a capitalist. Read the Bible sometime.

Why do you keep bringing up Jesus and the bible? I thought this was a political thread? Do you think I am a deeply religious person :?:

 

[Glaucus]

Given the choice between private an public, the vast majority of people in the work force will chose the private option. The public plan will have to be funded through taxation, crushing taxation.

Your logic is flawed. If everyone chooses private insurance, then the burden on the public health care will be light and thus there's no reason at all for the taxation to be crushing. If the opposite is true, and everyone uses pubic health care, then what extra they pay in taxes will be offset by lack of insurance premiums. I thought conservatives were good at the numbers game.

 

[faethor]

Problem is you can't have both. Who can afford to pay a high fee to a private plan AND pay a crushing tax for an unused public plan.

Again other countries do have a mix of public and private...

[quote:1tb55swr]If you were paying attention to the supply side economics of the last 30+ years -- Republicans are doing a great job of this themselves.

Not exactly, but that is for another thread.[/quote:1tb55swr] In brief the largest middle-class was during the 60s and early 70s. We've been on a clear decrease for sure since Reagan took office. The the Bush wacked 8 years did quite a bit to push towards a 2 class system. We're still not out of the Bush damage to the economy. So please don't consider a 2 party system as only a Democratic value as it clearly is a Republican result.

Here's a question. If government run healthcare results in a hefty government tax and we pay a hefty private insurance tax do you support eliminating Veterans healthcare benefits? Certainly it'd be cheaper, in your view, for us not to pay these excessive amounts either.

 

[redrumloa]

Your logic is flawed. If everyone chooses private insurance, then the burden on the public health care will be light and thus there's no reason at all for the taxation to be crushing. If the opposite is true, and everyone uses pubic health care, then what extra they pay in taxes will be offset by lack of insurance premiums. I thought conservatives were good at the numbers game.

How is my logic flawed? With the exception of rogue companies like Walmart, the working class already has private health insurance. A public plan is supposed to be for the uninsured, who work for rogue companies like Walmart or do not work for whatever reason. These people still will not be able to afford the public option, so the rest of us will flip the bill. We won't likely get it much directly, but indirectly as they tax the living hell out of corporations. The net result will be cutting salaries and benefits, ultimately with a move away from private insurance altogether. Some of you guys act like this can all be done at no cost and it is evil to oppose any plan regardless of the plan, costs or any ethical considerations. We already have somewhat of a safety net with medicare / medicaid, disabled persons already get benefits. No one is saying yet how this is all going to be paid, nor the exact details.

 

[faethor]

@RED

Don't forget government care will be so horrid that, for example the UK would leave Stephan Hawking to die. Oops Hawking was born and lives in the UK. I'd think it funny if it wasn't such a pathetic attempt at scare mongering.

Great protest picture : http://imgur.com/SeWaG.jpg

 

[Robert]

The so-called "healthcare debate" is ridiculously silly.

So many people, talking so much absurd shite.