Obama's "Death Panels" to kill elderly and disabled?

[faethor]

The so-called "healthcare debate" is ridiculously silly.
So many people, talking so much absurd shite.

I could see how a European may think this. There's definitely a different frame of reference in that area of the world. Right wing and left wing would both support a national system. The US is the ONLY industrialized nation in the world without a national healthcare system.

 

[redrumloa]

Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/Heal ... 010&page=1

President Obama's Administration Signaled It Might Drop the Government-Run Health Insurance Option

The big question: is the president's plan for a government-run health insurance option dead?

The Obama administration further signaled today that it might be willing to negotiate on the so-called public option provision

First, Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius said that a government alternative to private health insurance is "not the essential element" of the administration's health care overhaul.

Once again Obama not only slams on the breaks, but puts the car in reverse while still traveling forward.

 

[Robert]

The so-called "healthcare debate" is ridiculously silly.
So many people, talking so much absurd shite.

I could see how a European may think this. There's definitely a different frame of reference in that area of the world. Right wing and left wing would both support a national system. The US is the ONLY industrialized nation in the world without a national healthcare system.

True. The following was in the Daily Mash today and would appear to confirm your view:

AMERICANS WITHOUT HEALTH INSURANCE ATTACK PLAN TO GIVE THEM HEALTH INSURANCE

FAT, stupid Americans with no health insurance have attacked plans to
stop them dying so easily.

Across the United States poor people who are told what to think by
television said President Obama's plan to give them free healthcare
could lead to them being treated in a hospital that was not run by the
Chicago Mafia.

Bill McKay, a retired shitkicker and Fox News analyst, from Kentucky,
said: "I would rather replace my own hip using a rusty spoon than wait
two months to have it done in a communist hospital, by some
coffee-coloured faggot doctor who will then eat my unborn child to
celebrate the end of Ramadan."

Barbara Hayes, a God-fearer, from Arkansas, added: "Ah see'd some woman
from England on the Fox News sayin' her muslim communist doctor would
only give her the good medicines if she denounced Jesus. Ah ain't
denouncin' Jesus fir nobody, no siree."

But Dr Tom Logan, head of public health at the Institute for Studies,
said: "The key difference between the United States and Britain is that
we treat poor people rather than leaving them to die in a skip.

"It may take a few weeks or even months, and not everyone is happy about
that, but we do at least all agree that it is marginally better than the
skip."

He added: "Rich people have a thing called 'BUPA'. No-one knows what it
stands for, though some people say it sounds as if it might be Indian.
But it does mean you get your own room, quick treatment, nice food, and
you get fawned over by nurses who were just that bit too sexy for the
NHS."

Meanwhile Conservative leader David Cameron was forced to defend the NHS
after Tory MEP Daniel Hannan's ego told Fox News that Britain's health
system was 'worse than a lifetime of anal warts'.

A Conservative spokesman said: "We're not really sure what Daniel
Hannan's problem is with the NHS. Perhaps they were unable to save his
hair."

Stephen Malley, professor of American History at Reading University,
added: "To be fair to Fox News and the Republicans, they do have a
principled objection to socialised medicine based largely on the fact
that a black man won the election.

"The thing you must always remember about the American right wing is
that they are basically the baddies in a film."

 

[faethor]

Here's an approach -- why not simply enable Medicare for all citizens. Hire a few actuaries to figure out the $. People pay for Medicare just as they would any other plan. Perhaps add some extra $ to cover those people in society that are ~200-250% above poverty.

-No taxes raised
-Hoyt (I believe the name is right) ammendment means nothing paid to abortions.
-No 'death squads'

This wouldn't create another system, likely much less expensive. We'd probably need to hire a few more people to process claims and such but again cost covered by the majority of the payees. Relationships with doctors have already been established.

Very hard to stand against. Will the Republicans really stand up and tell Grandma that Medicare is awful?

Straight forward. Medicare was 65 and above. A few sentences ammended to include the disabled. I'd think a few sentences could ammend a cost for those who wish to buy in.

And yes OPTIONAL -- Red hates the government. He signs an agreement to either buy in and if not the government plan never pays towards his healthcare. He in turn never pays in because only those signed up pay.

I think this makes good sense. It's more straight forward and would seem to have less obstacles.

 

[Glaucus]

I just saw Sicko last night. Pretty amazing that anyone could defend privatized medicine after watching that. What I thought was most interesting is when the British former MP was talking about how universal medicare is an integral part of democracy and that without it you have a lesser form of democracy. I totally agree with that, meaning, the US is a second rate democracy at best. A key part of democracy is to give people power via the ballot, and that can't be done if a portion of them are too poor to function due to a lack of healthcare. When you're poor don't show up to the polls, democracy suffers. Democracy, just like health care, isn't just for the healthy and the rich.

What I also find interesting is that the only nation in the Western world where there is actual discussion for a complete overhaul of the medical system is the only one that's privatized. Although a great many Americans cling onto privatized healthcare like they do guns and bibles, there's a great many who would like to see a universal system instead. You won't see any serious efforts to convert France's medical system to private. Same could be said for the rest of the Western world, minus the US of course. I think that speaks volumes.

 

[redrumloa]

I just saw Sicko last night. Pretty amazing that anyone could defend privatized medicine after watching that. What I thought was most interesting is when the British former MP was talking about how universal medicare is an integral part of democracy and that without it you have a lesser form of democracy. I totally agree with that, meaning, the US is a second rate democracy at best. A key part of democracy is to give them power, and that can't be done if a portion of them are too poor to function due to a lack of healthcare. When you're poor don't show up to the polls, democracy suffers. Democracy, just like health care, isn't just for the healthy and the rich.

What I also find interesting is that the only nation in the Western world where there is actual discussion for a complete overhaul of the medical system is the only one that's privatized. Although a great many Americans cling onto privatized healthcare like they do guns and bibles, there's a great many who would like to see a universal system instead. You won't see any serious efforts to convert France's medical system to private. Same could be said for the rest of the Western world, minus the US of course. I think that speaks volumes.

There is a reason the USA was the economic juggernaut it was for decades and anyone with enough drive could make a nice life for themselves.

 

[cecilia]

The so-called "healthcare debate" is ridiculously silly.
So many people, talking so much absurd shite.

I could see how a European may think this. There's definitely a different frame of reference in that area of the world. Right wing and left wing would both support a national system. The US is the ONLY industrialized nation in the world without a national healthcare system.

True. The following was in the Daily Mash today and would appear to confirm your view:

AMERICANS WITHOUT HEALTH INSURANCE ATTACK PLAN TO GIVE THEM HEALTH INSURANCE

FAT, stupid Americans with no health insurance have attacked plans to
stop them dying so easily.

Across the United States poor people who are told what to think by
television said President Obama's plan to give them free healthcare
could lead to them being treated in a hospital that was not run by the
Chicago Mafia.

Bill McKay, a retired shitkicker and Fox News analyst, from Kentucky,
said: "I would rather replace my own hip using a rusty spoon than wait
two months to have it done in a communist hospital, by some
coffee-coloured faggot doctor who will then eat my unborn child to
celebrate the end of Ramadan."

Barbara Hayes, a God-fearer, from Arkansas, added: "Ah see'd some woman
from England on the Fox News sayin' her muslim communist doctor would
only give her the good medicines if she denounced Jesus. Ah ain't
denouncin' Jesus fir nobody, no siree."

But Dr Tom Logan, head of public health at the Institute for Studies,
said: "The key difference between the United States and Britain is that
we treat poor people rather than leaving them to die in a skip.

"It may take a few weeks or even months, and not everyone is happy about
that, but we do at least all agree that it is marginally better than the
skip."

He added: "Rich people have a thing called 'BUPA'. No-one knows what it
stands for, though some people say it sounds as if it might be Indian.
But it does mean you get your own room, quick treatment, nice food, and
you get fawned over by nurses who were just that bit too sexy for the
NHS."

Meanwhile Conservative leader David Cameron was forced to defend the NHS
after Tory MEP Daniel Hannan's ego told Fox News that Britain's health
system was 'worse than a lifetime of anal warts'.

A Conservative spokesman said: "We're not really sure what Daniel
Hannan's problem is with the NHS. Perhaps they were unable to save his
hair."

Stephen Malley, professor of American History at Reading University,
added: "To be fair to Fox News and the Republicans, they do have a
principled objection to socialised medicine based largely on the fact
that a black man won the election.

"The thing you must always remember about the American right wing is
that they are basically the baddies in a film."

:roflmao:
satire at it's best!

 

[Glaucus]

There is a reason the USA was the economic juggernaut it was for decades and anyone with enough drive could make a nice life for themselves.

Personally, I'd rather live in France. I just wish they'd all learn to speak English!

You know, if the US was as devastated as the other nations after WW2, I wonder if the US would be as dominant as it is today. Perhaps the only reason people could make a nice life for themselves was because there were thousands of miles of water separating the US from it's enemies. And before the 70's, one could really only make a nice life for themselves if they were white.

 

[faethor]

I just saw Sicko last night. Pretty amazing that anyone could defend privatized medicine after watching that. What I thought was most interesting is when the British former MP was talking about how universal medicare is an integral part of democracy and that without it you have a lesser form of democracy.

This morning on the radio was an article about the UK. Turns out there's a lessor known 'Rush Limbaugh' type of talking head in the UK. (My term not the broadcast.) He was railing against the UK healthcare system. The head of the conservative party came out to distance himself and the conservative party from the talking head and to compliment and support the government run healthcare. Sorry I don't remember all the names at this point.

anyone with enough drive could make a nice life for themselves.

Though note that doesn't exclude that other countries can't accomplish this in a different manner. If memory servers, Sweden's citizens are surveyed as the happiest group in the world. They have obviously made a nice life for themselves.

 

[Robert]

anyone with enough drive could make a nice life for themselves.

As long as they are well enough......

 

[redrumloa]

You know, if the US was as devastated as the other nations after WW2, I wonder if the US would be as dominant as it is today. Perhaps the only reason people could make a nice life for themselves was because there were thousands of miles of water separating the US from it's enemies.

Not exactly. The 90's real estate bubble deflation excluded, Japan has done quite well for itself too. Japan was nearly wiped off the map in many areas.

And before the 70's, one could really only make a nice life for themselves if they were white.

Again not exactly, but blacks and other minorities certainly had additional obstacles in their way. Racism and prejudice is/was not exclusive to the USA. Even whites had obstacles at times, look at the Irish immigrants 100-200 years ago.

 

[Glaucus]

You know, if the US was as devastated as the other nations after WW2, I wonder if the US would be as dominant as it is today. Perhaps the only reason people could make a nice life for themselves was because there were thousands of miles of water separating the US from it's enemies.

Not exactly. The 90's real estate bubble deflation excluded, Japan has done quite well for itself too. Japan was nearly wiped off the map in many areas.

I know Japan has, as has Germany. But that's not what I was wondering. The question is, would the US have maintained it's dominance. If the US was equally ravaged, could it not be possible that it would not be the sole super power of the world today? It's purely hypothetical and totally off topic, but my point is that just because the US is a power house today may not be any indication that it's internal political and economic systems are superior to all others. It may be just a matter of geography and little else.

 

[the_leander]

Having had the need of emergency medical care twice in my life, I really struggle to comprehend what would have happened if I had lived in the US if my parents were earning a comparable wage...

Actually that's a flat out lie. What would have happened is that they (and now I) would still be paying off the bill.

And gods help you if you end up with a long term illness from what I've seen of private health insurance.

Truth is, you can have both. The complaint about "poor people" getting second rate service is laughable tbh. They get that already - either by going into severe debt or dying of what ails them.

There is a reason the US's child mortality rate is higher then say... Cuba's for example.

Yes, healthcare is expensive, yes, at some point you will always hit a point of rationing (either through extreme expense that can't be met by the state, or by you). But, lifting the bottom end does not necessarily mean that the top end need suffer.

If all you're seeing is dollars going out the window at this point consider this: If people have better health, they're more productive. How many people would be able to go back to work tomorrow if only they had access to psychiatric drugs for instance?

Better healthcare has both social and economic benefits. To dismiss it is not only calous in the extreme, it is short sighted.

Also, to those who attacked the NHS:

A fire, die in one.

 

[redrumloa]

Having had the need of emergency medical care twice in my life, I really struggle to comprehend what would have happened if I had lived in the US if my parents were earning a comparable wage...

Actually that's a flat out lie. What would have happened is that they (and now I) would still be paying off the bill.

Actually you have been snowed over by a flat out falsehood (lie). I have a sister in-law who is dying of cancer and has no insurance. She will not recover and likely only has months to live, that is the sad truth. Despite this, she has been getting treatment throughout. To date treatments would have been over 1 million. Ultimately the taxpayer gets the bill, not the extended family. Don't believe everything the TV tells you, especially when that TV has a fat slob propagandist like Michael Moore on it.

 

[cecilia]

you got it right, leander...people with little or no money are way more likely to avoid seeing doctors. if they happen to have something that can be "fixed" if caught early then that doesn't happen and if the medical industry does get involved it's WAY too late.

keeping people healthy is a longterm program. americans really are mostly clueless.

 

[Glaucus]

Actually you have been snowed over by a flat out falsehood (lie). I have a sister in-law who is dying of cancer and has no insurance. She will not recover and likely only has months to live, that is the sad truth. Despite this, she has been getting treatment throughout. To date treatments would have been over 1 million. Ultimately the taxpayer gets the bill, not the extended family. Don't believe everything the TV tells you, especially when that TV has a fat slob propagandist like Michael Moore on it.

And what makes you think that she'd get any less treatment in a universal health care system? You love to bash Michael Moore, but you're no better - You, both love to use anecdotal evidence. Well, actually, Moore does back it up with statistics so I guess you're far less credible. Obviously the US health care system works for some people, the real question is, does it work for everyone? The way it's currently set up, the answer to that question will always be a big fat NO. I find this very undemocratic.

 

[the_leander]

Actually you have been snowed over by a flat out falsehood (lie). I have a sister in-law who is dying of cancer and has no insurance. She will not recover and likely only has months to live, that is the sad truth. Despite this, she has been getting treatment throughout. To date treatments would have been over 1 million. Ultimately the taxpayer gets the bill, not the extended family. Don't believe everything the TV tells you, especially when that TV has a fat slob propagandist like Michael Moore on it.

Red, to put your comment in perspective: Michael Moore has been seen more on British TV in Team America replays then his documentaries. He is practically unknown.

To be clear, it was due to this place and Amiga.org that I ever heard of him.

I'm sorry about your sister. I'm glad that she's getting the treatment she needs.

If I am wrong about the system I apologise, but I feel I should clarify: I was basing what I wrote on comments written by Americans who have suffered this first hand.

But no, beyond anecdotal evidence I don't have stats to back it up.

 

[the_leander]

Sometimes, the system works.

[youtube:z2bwauu6]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube:z2bwauu6]

 

[cecilia]

Sometimes, the system works.

[youtube:1hgn9ylm]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube:1hgn9ylm]

isn't that beautiful???

 

[the_leander]

Sometimes, the system works.

[youtube:1xte4t1y]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nYlZiWK2Iy8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube:1xte4t1y]

isn't that beautiful???

It takes a speshul kind of person to accuse a gay Jew of supporting a "Nazi" policy. Girl obviously has balls of steel, or is a complete retard.

But yes, was nice to see a moonbat being spanked for their fucktardedness.

I was reading Pharyngula and spotted this classic in the responses to this vid:

By Bobber:-

The best way to address the concerns of the ignorant is to educate them. The best way to address the concerns of the willfully ignorant is to belittle them.