Obama's "Death Panels" to kill elderly and disabled?

Fear mongering. Republicans will never get tired of it.
 
the_leander said:
But no, beyond anecdotal evidence I don't have stats to back it up.
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About 2 Million Americans per year declare bankrupcy due to medical conditions.

For another ancedotal cancer story a friend of mine just lost his mother to the disease. She was middle-class before the disease and died penniless leaving no assets to her child or grandchildren as the residual value in her home had to be leveraged for the disease.
 
redrumloa said:
There is a reason the USA was the economic juggernaut it was for decades and anyone with enough drive could make a nice life for themselves.
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That's a myth, but a well sold one. Social mobility (rising above the level of your birth) is much greater in Europe than in the US and has been for decades. Countries with the highest mobility are countries like Sweden.

The US, on the other hand, has a rigid class system and a wealth distribution of a third world country. Americans don't actually know this because they'd rather believe their own hype. It makes them feel better about themselves.

In Sweden, infant mortality is 2.75 / 1000 live births. In the US it's 6.3 / 1000. More than twice as many infants die. Best medical system in the world?
 
In the Salon article "The "death panels" are already here

Imagine:
A sick 17-year-old girl needs a liver transplant. Doctors find an available organ, and they're ready to operate, but the bureaucracy -[...] steps in and says it won't pay for the surgery. Despite protests from the girl's family and her doctors, the heartless hacks hold their ground for a critical 10 days. Eventually, under massive public pressure, they relent -- but the patient dies before the operation can proceed.
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The death panel was a private insurer and the 17 year old was Nataline Sarkisyan.

And that's the way it goes with private health care, only they ration even more ruthlessly than public healthcare. Why? Well, they have to make a profit, and where do you think that profit comes from? From the care that someone needed but by some loophole or other didn't qualify for. You see, insurance companies love collecting money, but they hate paying it out. It is, after all, their money. They have it, you gave it to them. It is bad business to give it back. As soon as the money is about to go the other way teams set to work trying to find if there is any way they can deny the claim. It's not cynical to say that, it's a function of the need to make profit.

The US system of healthcare costs twice as much per capita as the Canadian single payer system but covers less people. Many are satisfied with their private plans because they haven't needed to use them seriously. When people find out that their coverage that they pay for doesn't really exist they can change their minds but then it's too late and they sink into obscure poverty where they won't do anyone's profits any damage.

So, then, whence cometh the outcry against change? From the people that would be hurt by it... the insurance industry. They run good well funded propaganda shops because they can afford to. Of course, these days they don't call it propaganda. Edward Bernays did away with that word in the 20's when he re-dubbed the field "Public Relations. Controlling the unthinking masses by propaganda, he claimed, was a necessary part modern democracy - or at least a necessary part of a profitable "democracy" for the few. It is so much more cost effective if the slaves control themselves with false beliefs and lies than to send in the army to control them.

None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. -Goethe
 
Glaucus said:
Fear mongering. Republicans will never get tired of it.
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Goebbels and Michael Moore must be proud. I don't know if I have ever seem a more blatant choreographed, scripted exchange with a plant in my life. But hey, that's CNN (Clinton News Network) for you!
 
Glaucus said:
Fear mongering. Republicans will never get tired of it.
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"It is President Obama who wants [to] mandate circumcision … And that means, if we need to save our penises from anybody, it's Obama." -- Rush Limbaugh.

If they circumcised Rush's dick he'd be 5 feet shorter. :roflmao:

Republican Michelle Bachmann asked people to pray and fast that healthcare does not get passed. :whack:
 
why am I not surprised that limpbaugh is obsessed about dicks
 
Legislated Sterilization: The Beginning of Positive Eugenics in the US
The eugenicists were not satisfied, however, that marriage restriction laws would adequately restrict the procreation of those they considered defective and delinquent. They began pushing for forced sterilization laws. In 1907, with the encouragement of Dr. Harry Sharp, the man who brought the vasectomy to the United States, Indiana earned itself the notorious distinction of becoming the first state in the United States and the world to pass a bill mandating the sterilization of those considered confirmed criminals, idiots, imbeciles, and rapists in state institutions – as long as the practice was recommended by a board of ‘experts.’88 In the next few years, under the urging of the eugenicists thirty states followed suit, drawing heavily from a Model Eugenical Law written by eugenicist Harry Laughlin.89 The devastation wrought by the new law was great. By 1968, 65,000 Americans had been sterilized against their will in the thirty states that had passed the laws, with more than 52 percent of those being labeled as “mentally retarded” by IQ tests which presupposed their inferiority.90
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Hmm, what does that sound like.
 
redrumloa said:
Indiana earned itself the notorious distinction of becoming the first state in the United States and the world to pass a bill mandating the sterilization of those considered confirmed criminals, idiots, imbeciles, and rapists in state institutions
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Hmm, what does that sound like.
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It sounds like they were no longer using the good old fashioned methods of eugenics .. i.e. hanging criminals as young as 8 for even petty crimes like stealing an apple and burning people with mental problems as witches. Remember - killing people is also an effective way of preventing them from reproducing... and if you use recycled rope it's green too, apparently. :)
 
redrumloa said:
Don't believe everything the TV tells you, especially when that TV has a fat slob propagandist like Michael Moore on it.
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You like to dis Michael Moore, but Wendell Potter says he's right.

So who the heck is Wendell Potter? I linked to something of his in the last few days but let's do it again. Wendell Potter used to work for Cigna. It was his job to create and disseminate propaganda about how great the US for profit health care system is. He was dispatched to watch Sicko as part of his job to generate propaganda discrediting the movie's points. Turns out he knew enough about the industry and health care in other places that he knew that Sicko's claims were fundamentally sound.

He quit his job at Cigna:
Since then, Potter has become an outspoken advocate for healthcare reform. Why reform? Because of statistics like these: The U.S. healthcare system is the most expensive in the world, with each person spending more than twice as much on care than people in other industrialized nations. Yet our system ranks 29th in infant mortality, 28th in healthy life expectancy, and 37th overall.
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That's the bottom line. People's health-care is being marked up to maximize profit.

Interview with Wendell Potter
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addendum

Sorry to hear about your sister-in-law. It is generally true that extended family are not liable for debts of deceased relatives (not even next of kin are liable - despite what collections agents try to tell people). However, she is likely still liable for the cost and if she has an estate the hospital is allowed to make a claim within 30 days (or so, I can't remember) against the estate. The government has mandated care but this is an unfunded mandate!
 
redrumloa said:
Hmm, what does that sound like.
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Why don't you explain to us how you think this fits in with public health so we can show you why you're wrong.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Yet our system ranks 29th in infant mortality, 28th in healthy life expectancy, and 37th overall.
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Frankie Boyle had a good comment on this:

The only time British life expectancy is lower then the Americans is when we're doing joint military excersises.
 
Fade said:
and of course if you can stay conscious.
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Sounds like a reasoned and nuanced debate as health workers raise and discuss concerns about the over use of a protocol.

Of course this is not the proper way to handle health for profit. You should only help the poor to checkout and stop using valuable bed space. The better off should be treated and billed until they are destitute. Oh, and one should never ever talk about such things in public. (Unless you happen to be in court when you might be compelled to).
 
Fade said:
Frankie Boyle had a good comment on this:
"The only time British life expectancy is lower then the Americans is when we're doing joint military excersises."



and of course if you can stay conscious.
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You beat me to the punch on this one Fade. I was going to post this same link and offer the comment that this type of situation is precisely why there are concerns in the US over a government run ("public option") health care system. Whether they are reasonable, concerned opponents of the suggested government option or the far right "wing bats", this is exactly the kind of concern that leads to comments like "death panels", etc... I hope for the sake of those in the UK who may have to face this type of scenario that this issues gets resolved very quickly.

Regards,
Ltstanfo
 
ltstanfo said:
You beat me to the punch on this one Fade. I was going to post this same link and offer the comment that this type of situation is precisely why there are concerns in the US over a government run ("public option") health care system.
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Is the logic here that Americans believe their government is worse than the UK's government at providing services? And of course it's interesting to hold up the UK exception while ignoring the other 28 countries who are ahead of us on quality of Healthcare.
 
faethor said:
Is the logic here that Americans believe their government is worse than the UK's government at providing services? And of course it's interesting to hold up the UK exception while ignoring the other 28 countries who are ahead of us on quality of Healthcare.
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One could make the arguement in your first statement (not that I am necessarily agreeing). As for other countires being ahead of us on "quality" of healthcare, I don't see anyone here denying it. My point was simply that for all the proponents espousing various models (including the UK NHS) all it takes is one (factual) report like the link Fade provided and it becomes difficult for a number of Americans to so readily agree with the proponents.

Regards,
Ltstanfo
 
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