Riot in London last night

the_leander said:
This, it's too convenient a justification. If some kid had been turned over, I would have expected to have seen pics show up, not to mention interviews with eye witnesses. In this age of smartphones which can upload photos to the net in the blink of an eye...
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If the only place this has shown up is twitter then I'm skeptical. The twitter chamber is a typical rumour network where the the source gets lost and everyone adds their own embellishments - but the volume of people saying the same thing makes it look like it must be true. The media use the same sort of flooding the message to make a thing look true too but their agenda is usually easier to trace.

During the hockey riot here in Vancouver twitter was reporting a Bruins fan killed, pushed from a bridge by Canucks fans. Didn't happen.

However, the police have not been winning hearts and minds of late. They've been getting much well deserved bad press for the support they have given to the rulers against the legitimate interests of the people. The reap what they sow.

Best way to quell violence like this is still the good old fashioned way of making sure everyone has a decent job and a mortgage. What you don't want is a crowd of people with not much or nothing at all to lose.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Best way to quell violence like this is still the good old fashioned way of making sure everyone has a decent job and a mortgage. What you don't want is a crowd of people with not much or nothing at all to lose.
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South London has long been a dumping ground for the disaffected. That said, places like Tottenham have improved vastly since the last riots in 1985, unemployment rates are half what they were then. Unfortunately there are too many people with their own interests in keeping things as they are who would loose power if things really improved.

As far as this incident with the girl goes, I've yet to see an interview of this supposed witness, it appears that it did indeed come out of Twitter and was picked up by the media. They have been doing that for a while actually and reporting posts there as fact on a number of subjects.

The violence however is spreading like a virus, with police at this stage completely outmatched in terms of numbers and severely limited in what they can use (no batton rounds, tear gas or water cannon).

A lot of honest, innocent people are going to wake up tomorrow to find their cars and businesses torched as a result of all of this.
 
the_leander said:
"Laurence Bailey "holed up in a church 10 metres away from the Tottenham riot". He told the Guardian that he saw a large group of youths, including a girl "throw some card and something else, maybe a stone, at the original riot police line".
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No, this is starting to have the ring of truth for me. Usually when the police show up like this it provokes a confrontation (because they are threatening and adversarial by nature and there are always a few folks who will react against this in like) - and the charge is part of the shock and awe that seems to be popular these days.

Once upon a time police would simply observe and remove trouble makers but the new militarized approach is to bust up crowds and not allow them to gather to protest. The approach isn't to quell any individual protest but to make protesting much more dangerous so people are less likely to do it (plus arresting people let's you put people in your files for further harassment and surveilance).

Even licensed and approved protests are broken up this way these days. Governments just don't want crowds gathering. People might start thinking they could win.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
No, this is starting to have the ring of truth for me. Usually when the police show up like this it provokes a confrontation (because they are threatening and adversarial by nature and there are always a few folks who will react against this in like) - and the charge is part of the shock and awe that seems to be popular these days.

Once upon a time police would simply observe and remove trouble makers but the new militarized approach is to bust up crowds and not allow them to gather to protest.
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Problem was, doing that resulted in large numbers of police casualties and at the time was critisised as being adversarial in its own right and so the tactic was dropped.

FluffyMcDeath said:
People might start thinking they could win.
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Given that half of south london is now on fire, with outbreaks of violence in Manchester and now Birmingham, they are.

The question is though, which people?
 
the_leander said:
South London has long been a dumping ground for the disaffected. That said, places like Tottenham have improved vastly since the last riots in 1985, unemployment rates are half what they were then. Unfortunately there are too many people with their own interests in keeping things as they are who would loose power if things really improved.
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That's an interesting statement - I'm not familiar with the parties involved here so perhaps some elucidation.
As far as this incident with the girl goes, I've yet to see an interview of this supposed witness, it appears that it did indeed come out of Twitter and was picked up by the media.
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Kind of like Iran and Syria etc.
The violence however is spreading like a virus, with police at this stage completely outmatched in terms of numbers and severely limited in what they can use (no batton rounds, tear gas or water cannon).
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Good. I hope it scares the powers that be - or even overthrows them.
A lot of honest, innocent people are going to wake up tomorrow to find their cars and businesses torched as a result of all of this.
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A pity, but good for GDP. Bad for insurance companies and the "names" but a benefit for people who labour. If only the rioters were better organized and had better logistics. They really should be moving large numbers of people to better targets. They have the will and enthusiasm to lash out but not the coordination to get things done.

But it is a foreseeable consequence of the kind of authoritarian attitude of the rulers and the "austerity" threat that always makes it the responsibility of the poor to tighten their belts so that the rich can fatten their bottom lines. Maggie started a lot of riots herself with exactly the same sort of attitude. The institutions of government and the media have had a crisis of trust and rightfully so and without tearing it all down (at least to a significant degree) it's not going to just magically come back. It's like losing you religion. Once you realize it's all lies, it's hard to go back believing in it.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
That's an interesting statement - I'm not familiar with the parties involved here so perhaps some elucidation.
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South London contains within it some of the most deprived areas in the UK south of Birmingham (there are northern towns, especially former mining towns that are significantly worse, but not many of them). It's been kept that way as a result of "community leaders" popping up and scooping up cash when it's handed out to fix things for years, and Labour have helped to keep it that way as a means to bolster their support.

FluffyMcDeath said:
Kind of like Iran and Syria etc.
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Indeed.

FluffyMcDeath said:
Good. I hope it scares the powers that be - or even overthrows them.
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If it overthrows them great, if it just scares them... Not so much.

FluffyMcDeath said:
A pity, but good for GDP. Bad for insurance companies and the "names" but a benefit for people who labour.
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Not if they're not covered (which I very much doubt for some if not many of the small businesses that have been hit), not if in the mean time they loose everything.

FluffyMcDeath said:
If only the rioters were better organized and had better logistics. They really should be moving large numbers of people to better targets. They have the will and enthusiasm to lash out but not the coordination to get things done.
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Apparently twitter is helping to do just this, at least for some.

FluffyMcDeath said:
But it is a foreseeable consequence of the kind of authoritarian attitude of the rulers and the "austerity" threat that always makes it the responsibility of the poor to tighten their belts so that the rich can fatten their bottom lines. Maggie started a lot of riots herself with exactly the same sort of attitude. The institutions of government and the media have had a crisis of trust and rightfully so and without tearing it all down (at least to a significant degree) it's not going to just magically come back. It's like losing you religion. Once you realize it's all lies, it's hard to go back believing in it.
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Thing is though, Maggie won.
 
the_leander said:
Hope you don't mind that I combined your two responses, I figured it'd make it cleaner.

Absolutely correct. Which is why I said so three times. :)
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Fair enough. :)

No, I read it alright, what I seriously doubt is that out of a substantial group, she was the only one doing so, or that she was the only one who copped one in return.
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And you won't find me arguing against that either(for now). That could well be the case. It might come out in the wash or we might never know.
What I do think is that there is enough anecdotal evidence and supposed eyewitness quotes for me to accept that there was probably an incident of some sort between a girl and police.
Whether it was:
a) as brutal as described
b) the girl who instigated things by throwing something
c) responsible for a protest escalating into a riot
is all up for question.

By spinning it as it all being aimed at an individual girl rather than one within a larger group, suddenly we get a justification to do what happened according to the interviewees.

-
Actually that was a little unfair of me and I should have been clearer. I've seen this used as a means of justifying the riot by interviewees.
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Fair enough but just so we're clear:
Even if a girl was a victim of an unprovoked and brutal attack by 15 riot police, you still wouldn't find me using it as justification for a riot.
 
Glaucus said:
Or perhaps the body just hasn't turned up yet.
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It would have been on the street below the bridge. There were other reports that people were clowning around on the wrong side of the railing and someone fell but was not killed. That could have been the source of the rumour but there is no demonstrated connecting line.
Btw, have they ever solved the floating foot phenomenon on the West Cost yet?
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The feet seem to have stopped coming ashore. Most of the feet were never matched to anyone.
 
Robert said:
Fair enough but just so we're clear:
Even if a girl was a victim of an unprovoked and brutal attack by 15 riot police, you still wouldn't find me using it as justification for a riot.
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Never thought for a second you would. Unfortunately a good few of the interviewees did, at least initially.

Watching BBC News24... This is some seriously fucked up shit. And I make no apologies for the language.
 
the_leander said:
Not if they're not covered (which I very much doubt for some if not many of the small businesses that have been hit), not if in the mean time they loose everything.
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Got to agree with this. Quite a number of innocent residents appear to have been left completely homeless and without any possessions of note because of this. Not good.

Apparently twitter is helping to do just this, at least for some.
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And Blackberry turning snitch:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/08/blackberry_riots/

Thing is though, Maggie won.
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Bitch is still winning.
 
Wow, Londoners think they're Greek or something??? At least the Greeks had the sense to torch their own city AFTER the Olympics.
 
the_leander said:
Never thought for a second you would. Unfortunately a good few of the interviewees did, at least initially.
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That's understandable though; if you're present when something like that happens - and especially if you know the victim - resentment and anger are perfectly normal reactions.
 
OK - somebody has to do this sooner or later so it might as well be me.

 
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