An interesting idea concerning the identity of God

Karlos said:
you asserted that atheism was the "lack of belief of any God(s)",
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As a direct response to a claim that atheism was a religion; hence my thinking you were defending the claim that it is religion.

Now that you have explained you weren't, I think we do concur. (Well, mostly...:cool:)

whereas I assert that it is the "belief in the lack of any God(s)". It might sound like semantics, but there is an important distinction in that the latter is still a belief, not the absence of a belief.
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I agree with your distinction. I further agree about the importance of the distinction and, to a certain extent but not completely, with your assertion.

As far as I am concerned it can mean both: I accept that it *can* mean what you assert, I just don't accept that it can *only* mean what you assert.

There are plenty of evangelical atheists (I've met a few) that simply aren't content to leave others alone in their beliefs.
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No argument there, I've met a few myself.

Although in their defence, I've yet to see one:
1) chap my door to tell me the "good news."
2) drag my childhood erse along to some ritualistic kiech surrounding atheism.
3) stand in the street, bellowing nonsense and cursing all those who don't adhere.

etc.

So, relatively speaking, they're not quite as noticable.
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metalman said:
Scientist have found that people who pray 1 to 2 hours have trained their brains to highten frontal lobe activity resulting in increased powers of concentration and supprisingly the parietal lobes go dark.
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Now this I didn't know and am genuinely interested.
Any links?

Chemically, peyote and other psychedelics look a lot like serotonin, and they activate the same receptor. Cave drawings that are tens of thousands of years old feature patterns which correspond to the visual effects produced by psychedelic drugs.
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This I have heard before.

Peyotism is the most widely practiced religion by Native Americans. It is legal for Native Americans to ingest peyote in the United States, as long as it is part of their bona fide religious ceremonies.
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I know and I think it's simultaneously tragic and hilarious. It's the same with Rastafarianism:
"Yes, you can get twatted but only if you claim to be doing it as part of a ritual based on something that may not even exist"

Peyote is a small flowering spineless pineapple looking cactus that grows only along the Rio Grand valley. The active ingredient in Peyote is mescaline. Native Americans using peyote report communicating with god, spirits, and ancestors. A general feeling of well being is reported as well as a feeling of connection to and compassion for others. Senses are heightened and users report things like colors looking more vibrant and music having more depth. On higher doses mixing of the senses is also common, such as seeing sounds and smelling colors. No negative long term effects of Peyote use have been discovered, but positive effects have been documented such as a higher level of psychological well being and a lower tendency to develop depression.
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All true but it also makes you puke before the experience starts. Or so I'm told. :D

-EDIT-
You probably know about the Carlos Castenada scam? I started reading his books before it became widely known that he might be making a lot of it up. I then heard something about them being fake and decided to keep reading anyway, since they were enjoyable books, regardless.
Anyway *lots* of peyote bothering in those books.
 
Have to say, I truly appreciate that video and agree with the principles behind it.

That's why I'm an Apathist. God may, or may not exist. I'm not smart enough to know for certain, but until God affects my life in a proven, unmistakeable, demonstrated way which cannot be denied, I simply can't spend my time caring.

Will I "burn in hell"? Maybe. Maybe not. Only a person who's burned in hell would know for certain, and I haven't heard from a lot of them to tell me definitively yes or no.
 
Robert said:
No.
It isn't.
It is a lack of belief in any Gods.
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Why must Atheist feel the need form groups, congregate and evangelize? The video is a perfect example. A group of theists put up a billboard to remind people atheists exist? That is not different than if Jehovah Witness but up a billboard to remind people that God exists.
 
redrumloa said:
Why must Atheist feel the need form groups, congregate and evangelize?
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Stop bashing my religion. ;-)

And I can only guess that you watched a different video from me.
 
redrumloa said:
Why must Atheist feel the need form groups, congregate and evangelize?
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Not that I like to be evangelized to (certainly not) but as an American, you should cheer the freedom of speach, don't you?
Or do you really only want commercials and preaching Christians?
 
redrumloa said:
Why must Atheist feel the need form groups, congregate and evangelize? The video is a perfect example. A group of theists put up a billboard to remind people atheists exist? That is not different than if Jehovah Witness but up a billboard to remind people that God exists.
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as an atheist I have felt for 90% of my life that I was simply one of the very very few. I never made any attempt to "join" anything as I didn't think any groups existed.

In fact I spent almost no time thinking about it. my lack of interest in religion was just one of those things. I have always been very happy as I am.

now, comes the Internet and slowly, I am noticing people admitting to being atheists. Wow, I say to myself, there's another one, and another one.......

when I joined Facebook a few years ago I slowly began to notice more people admitting to being atheists.....and after a while saw that there were groups. I joined just to see what they said.....I noticed that they too were more likely to be simply rational people. I have also noticed that some are very angry about religion. But I sense that this is because they had horrific experiences in their childhoods.

atheists join groups of other atheists for the same reason anyone joins a group. It's simply a human thing to do. It's interesting to see that one's ideas are actually shared by others. And one thing that really feels nice is seeing that the main reason why we are all atheists are very similar.

There really is no wacko conspiracy going on here. it's simple curiosity. Of course, one great thing about finding others who feel the same about this topic is that with unity there is power. I believe that is one reason the religious right wackos are running scared. they think atheists are out to ruin their fun. Most of us atheists really don't care. we just wish to be left alone.

I came to my atheists views on my own, with no one's help. I have NO interest in trying to force anyone to feel the same. I feel atheists are BORN, not made.
 
Argo said:
Why are the atheists even acknowledging a God they deny exists?
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They aren't acknowledging any God any more than you might acknowledge a leprechaun if you were to say that no such thing exists.
 
Dammy said:
I'll be US centric here for this post: I still say this is an attempt to destroy the basis of the US Constitution. I renounced Christianity decades ago, closest think I would be considered is somewhere between a unitarian (notice the lower case "u" not to be confused with Unitarians [upper case "u"]) and a Pagan so I have no real ax to grind as far as Christianity goes.
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In that you are much closer to the founding fathers than the average modern fundy is. I used to go to a little unitarian chapel near Tunbridge where Benjamin Franklin gave a sermon. Most of the founders were deists and Payne was an out and out atheist.
If the Atheist (and their political agenda) are successful in deleting "God" or "Creator" out of the US government, that means the very basis of the US Constitution is destroyed. If there is no, "Creator" that means those rights are now granted by US government. If the US government has granted those unalienable rights, that means they can "change" or "delete" or "define" those rights, legally. The thought of that happen will create a shiver down a conservative's back, does give a progressive a shiver in the pants with pleasure?
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Creator can be understood metaphorically and or we can simply state that the rights are inherent in humanity as some have. On the other hand, recognizing God has not been a great deterent to those who would take away people's rights. The administration of George Dubya Bush, who claimed to have been saved, was horribly destructive for those rights.
 
Karlos said:
I don't concur...

Whenever one deals with any subject for which there is no conclusive proof either way, you have to make an assessment. Your opinion is thus your belief on the subject, since in the absence of conclusive proof you can't have absolute certainty.

Unless a theist can provide conclusive proof for the existence of God or an atheist provide conclusive proof for the non-existence thereof (thus ending the old argument), then each is simply choosing to believe one interpretation or the other.
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I don't think that you will require from me absolute proof for the non-existence of leprechauns before you accept that they don't exist. If one shows up then we will have to reasses that but until then it is utterly resonable to act as if there are no leprechauns in the universe, no matter how many drunk Irishmen you meet who claim otherwise.

On the other hand, for any given god it is usually simple enough to show that it is not logically self consistent. This doesn't mean that there cannot be a god but if there is one it is not like any of the gods that people believe in and if it isn't like any of the gods people have thought of then it is something as yet unthought of which means that it has not yet had any detectable effects and therefore it is not a relevant idea for understanding the universe.

It may be a relevant idea for making you feel better about the universe or about yourself, but it has no practical untility beyond that pyschological effect.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
I don't think that you will require from me absolute proof for the non-existence of leprechauns before you accept that they don't exist. If one shows up then we will have to reasses that but until then it is utterly resonable to act as if there are no leprechauns in the universe, no matter how many drunk Irishmen you meet who claim otherwise.
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I feel the God / Leprechaun analogy is a poor one that doesn't really work (then again, I would say that), principally because of the vast difference between what is being compared. If God was generally regarded to be a small irish accented person that is forever afraid you are after his lucky charms, then I'd probably still be atheist.

An all-knowing incorporeal intelligence ultimately responsible for the existence of everything else is something for which there is no absolute proof (either way) but is, at least to me, inherently more believable than the Leprechaun *shrug*
 
redrumloa said:
Why must Atheist feel the need form groups, congregate and evangelize?
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Simply answered, Why must Christians feel the need form groups, congregate and evangelize?
 
redrumloa said:
Because that is what religions do.
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Agreed, but therein lies part of the problem.

Evangelism is offensive to those who don't believe what you do, whether that's Christianity, Atheism, Buddhism, or whatever. Regardless of which side you're on, or what you believe, it's hard to accept other people's beliefs without thinking they must be somehow mentally challenged.

Sort of like if I came to you at 45 years old and angrily confronted you about your insolent disbelief in Santa Claus.
 
metalman said:
Prayer may reshape your brain
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So does meditation, so does stroke, tumor and tuberculosis of the brain which may also lead to mystical experiences.
Extreme sleep deprivation may lead to seeing gorillas climbing down from the filing cabinet in the corner of your office. It does not mean that a gorilla actually climbed off the filing cabinet. (I speak from experience).
 
Karlos said:
An all-knowing incorporeal intelligence ultimately responsible for the existence of everything else is something for which there is no absolute proof (either way) but is, at least to me, inherently more believable than the Leprechaun *shrug*
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So, it is more believable because it is so much less likely? The old - it must be true because it would be such a massive lie that no-one would have the nerve to say it if it wasn't true.
 
Karlos said:
Actually, I think it's perfectly possible to be hostile towards something you do not accept exists. A typical diatribe I've encountered goes along the lines of "Well, there is no God, but if there was, then he's a nasty evil piece of work because he lets terrible things happen when he could prevent them." The sentiment is perfectly clear. One can actually rid themselves of the notion that God exists, but still hate the very idea of God, which under the circumstances is about as tantamount to the same thing as you can reasonably get. More often though, that antipathy is redirected towards the beliefs and practises of those that do believe or even to the people themselves.
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Asimov:
“If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul.”
 
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