Georgia, the Olympics, the US armada and Iran

[Robert]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.
The number of deaths is another matter. (as it almost always is in any conflict)

The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan.

I agree but the question everyone seems to be avoiding answering is the question I asked above:
How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

Georgia has admitted this but says it was provoked. I don't see how any provocation could justify this type of slaughter and it's been more or less whitewashed.

Sure they were provoked but they're still murdering scumbags.

 

[Robert]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

ONLY 133? Whoopee!

Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment but it comes across as though you think the Georgians were quite right to bomb civilian areas, so long as they didn't kill more than a hundred-odd.

There seems an underlying determination to paint Russia as the only baddie here.

Apologies if I'm taking you wrong.

The way I see it, even if their rockets hadn't killed anyone, the fact that they fired them at all makes them culpable.

 

[Robert]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

ONLY 133? Whoopee!

Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment but it comes across as though you think the Georgians were quite right to bomb civilian areas, so long as they didn't kill more than a hundred-odd.

There seems an underlying determination to paint Russia as the only baddie here.

Apologies if I'm taking you wrong.

The way I see it, even if their rockets hadn't killed anyone, the fact that they fired them at all makes them culpable.

 

[Robert]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

ONLY 133? Whoopee!

Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment but it comes across as though you think the Georgians were quite right to bomb civilian areas, so long as they didn't kill more than a hundred-odd.

There seems an underlying determination to paint Russia as the only baddie here.

Apologies if I'm taking you wrong.

The way I see it, even if their rockets hadn't killed anyone, the fact that they fired them at all makes them culpable.

 

[Robert]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

ONLY 133? Whoopee!

Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment but it comes across as though you think the Georgians were quite right to bomb civilian areas, so long as they didn't kill more than a hundred-odd.

There seems an underlying determination to paint Russia as the only baddie here.

Apologies if I'm taking you wrong.

The way I see it, even if their rockets hadn't killed anyone, the fact that they fired them at all makes them culpable.

 

[Robert]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

ONLY 133? Whoopee!

Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment but it comes across as though you think the Georgians were quite right to bomb civilian areas, so long as they didn't kill more than a hundred-odd.

There seems an underlying determination to paint Russia as the only baddie here.

Apologies if I'm taking you wrong.

The way I see it, even if their rockets hadn't killed anyone, the fact that they fired them at all makes them culpable.

 

[Robert]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

ONLY 133? Whoopee!

Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment but it comes across as though you think the Georgians were quite right to bomb civilian areas, so long as they didn't kill more than a hundred-odd.

There seems an underlying determination to paint Russia as the only baddie here.

Apologies if I'm taking you wrong.

The way I see it, even if their rockets hadn't killed anyone, the fact that they fired them at all makes them culpable.

 

[faethor]

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo.

Sorry listening to President McCain again, silly me. :roll:

 

[faethor]

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo.

Sorry listening to President McCain again, silly me. :roll:

 

[faethor]

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo.

Sorry listening to President McCain again, silly me. :roll:

 

[faethor]

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo.

Sorry listening to President McCain again, silly me. :roll:

 

[faethor]

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo.

Sorry listening to President McCain again, silly me. :roll:

 

[faethor]

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo.

Sorry listening to President McCain again, silly me. :roll:

 

[Glaucus]

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.

Well, I can't say I know word for word what Georgia admitted to. However, Like I mentioned before, S. Ossetians were evacuating the area days in advance. So if the Georgians said they attacked the city, it does not necessarily mean they attacked a populated area. Not sure which parts of the city were attacked either.

How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

One could draw artillery fire by simply launching artillery at the enemy. Since artillery is often countered with artillery, the S. Ossetians would need only to launch mortars or missiles at the Georgians, which would use special radars to pin point the point of origin and return fire (the US does this in Iraq when insurgents fire mortars into the Green zone, except they use howitzers instead of multiple rocket launchers). The Georgians do claim their attack was a response to a S. Ossetian attack, so it's conceivable that's what happened. This is just a theory of course, however, the latest casualty count doesn't really support the claim of a multiple rocket attack on a populated area. Hezbollah drew Israel into a war which ended up bombing tons of civilian targets in Lebanon. Russians also targeted civilian targets in Georgia (and there's evidence they used cluster bombs). Russians also used thermobaric bombs in Grozny back in 2001. Americans used phosphorous in Fallujah. So it seems it doesn't take much to provoke a heavy hand response as modern soldiers seem to prefer sacrificing civilians over themselves.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.

Well, I can't say I know word for word what Georgia admitted to. However, Like I mentioned before, S. Ossetians were evacuating the area days in advance. So if the Georgians said they attacked the city, it does not necessarily mean they attacked a populated area. Not sure which parts of the city were attacked either.

How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

One could draw artillery fire by simply launching artillery at the enemy. Since artillery is often countered with artillery, the S. Ossetians would need only to launch mortars or missiles at the Georgians, which would use special radars to pin point the point of origin and return fire (the US does this in Iraq when insurgents fire mortars into the Green zone, except they use howitzers instead of multiple rocket launchers). The Georgians do claim their attack was a response to a S. Ossetian attack, so it's conceivable that's what happened. This is just a theory of course, however, the latest casualty count doesn't really support the claim of a multiple rocket attack on a populated area. Hezbollah drew Israel into a war which ended up bombing tons of civilian targets in Lebanon. Russians also targeted civilian targets in Georgia (and there's evidence they used cluster bombs). Russians also used thermobaric bombs in Grozny back in 2001. Americans used phosphorous in Fallujah. So it seems it doesn't take much to provoke a heavy hand response as modern soldiers seem to prefer sacrificing civilians over themselves.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.

Well, I can't say I know word for word what Georgia admitted to. However, Like I mentioned before, S. Ossetians were evacuating the area days in advance. So if the Georgians said they attacked the city, it does not necessarily mean they attacked a populated area. Not sure which parts of the city were attacked either.

How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

One could draw artillery fire by simply launching artillery at the enemy. Since artillery is often countered with artillery, the S. Ossetians would need only to launch mortars or missiles at the Georgians, which would use special radars to pin point the point of origin and return fire (the US does this in Iraq when insurgents fire mortars into the Green zone, except they use howitzers instead of multiple rocket launchers). The Georgians do claim their attack was a response to a S. Ossetian attack, so it's conceivable that's what happened. This is just a theory of course, however, the latest casualty count doesn't really support the claim of a multiple rocket attack on a populated area. Hezbollah drew Israel into a war which ended up bombing tons of civilian targets in Lebanon. Russians also targeted civilian targets in Georgia (and there's evidence they used cluster bombs). Russians also used thermobaric bombs in Grozny back in 2001. Americans used phosphorous in Fallujah. So it seems it doesn't take much to provoke a heavy hand response as modern soldiers seem to prefer sacrificing civilians over themselves.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.

Well, I can't say I know word for word what Georgia admitted to. However, Like I mentioned before, S. Ossetians were evacuating the area days in advance. So if the Georgians said they attacked the city, it does not necessarily mean they attacked a populated area. Not sure which parts of the city were attacked either.

How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

One could draw artillery fire by simply launching artillery at the enemy. Since artillery is often countered with artillery, the S. Ossetians would need only to launch mortars or missiles at the Georgians, which would use special radars to pin point the point of origin and return fire (the US does this in Iraq when insurgents fire mortars into the Green zone, except they use howitzers instead of multiple rocket launchers). The Georgians do claim their attack was a response to a S. Ossetian attack, so it's conceivable that's what happened. This is just a theory of course, however, the latest casualty count doesn't really support the claim of a multiple rocket attack on a populated area. Hezbollah drew Israel into a war which ended up bombing tons of civilian targets in Lebanon. Russians also targeted civilian targets in Georgia (and there's evidence they used cluster bombs). Russians also used thermobaric bombs in Grozny back in 2001. Americans used phosphorous in Fallujah. So it seems it doesn't take much to provoke a heavy hand response as modern soldiers seem to prefer sacrificing civilians over themselves.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.

Well, I can't say I know word for word what Georgia admitted to. However, Like I mentioned before, S. Ossetians were evacuating the area days in advance. So if the Georgians said they attacked the city, it does not necessarily mean they attacked a populated area. Not sure which parts of the city were attacked either.

How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

One could draw artillery fire by simply launching artillery at the enemy. Since artillery is often countered with artillery, the S. Ossetians would need only to launch mortars or missiles at the Georgians, which would use special radars to pin point the point of origin and return fire (the US does this in Iraq when insurgents fire mortars into the Green zone, except they use howitzers instead of multiple rocket launchers). The Georgians do claim their attack was a response to a S. Ossetian attack, so it's conceivable that's what happened. This is just a theory of course, however, the latest casualty count doesn't really support the claim of a multiple rocket attack on a populated area. Hezbollah drew Israel into a war which ended up bombing tons of civilian targets in Lebanon. Russians also targeted civilian targets in Georgia (and there's evidence they used cluster bombs). Russians also used thermobaric bombs in Grozny back in 2001. Americans used phosphorous in Fallujah. So it seems it doesn't take much to provoke a heavy hand response as modern soldiers seem to prefer sacrificing civilians over themselves.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.

Well, I can't say I know word for word what Georgia admitted to. However, Like I mentioned before, S. Ossetians were evacuating the area days in advance. So if the Georgians said they attacked the city, it does not necessarily mean they attacked a populated area. Not sure which parts of the city were attacked either.

How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

One could draw artillery fire by simply launching artillery at the enemy. Since artillery is often countered with artillery, the S. Ossetians would need only to launch mortars or missiles at the Georgians, which would use special radars to pin point the point of origin and return fire (the US does this in Iraq when insurgents fire mortars into the Green zone, except they use howitzers instead of multiple rocket launchers). The Georgians do claim their attack was a response to a S. Ossetian attack, so it's conceivable that's what happened. This is just a theory of course, however, the latest casualty count doesn't really support the claim of a multiple rocket attack on a populated area. Hezbollah drew Israel into a war which ended up bombing tons of civilian targets in Lebanon. Russians also targeted civilian targets in Georgia (and there's evidence they used cluster bombs). Russians also used thermobaric bombs in Grozny back in 2001. Americans used phosphorous in Fallujah. So it seems it doesn't take much to provoke a heavy hand response as modern soldiers seem to prefer sacrificing civilians over themselves.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment but it comes across as though you think the Georgians were quite right to bomb civilian areas, so long as they didn't kill more than a hundred-odd.

There seems an underlying determination to paint Russia as the only baddie here.

No, Russia isn't the only bad guy. I think S. Ossetia has been in the same situation with Georgia as Georgia is with Russia. I also don't believe S. Ossetia should remain part of Georgia and I think G. Bush is foolish for pushing this (although it may be just for bargaining purposes - he needs all the leverage he can get). However, if Russia did provoke Georgia into doing something Georgia wouldn't normally have done, and what it did do was no where near what the Russians have been claiming, then I think Georgia should be given some leeway.

- Mike