Georgia, the Olympics, the US armada and Iran

[Robert]

I don't think any of us want to see Russia setting up miltary bases all over the planet and arming countries who don't get on with the US.

Well, well, well:

Moscow is expected to propose a revival of its Cold War era naval base at the Syrian port of Tartus on the Mediterranean, with some Russian reports even saying Moscow is already deepening it to accommodate a fleet of war ships. Russia may have similar ambitions for the port of Latakia, using Syria – which is in need of a powerful global backer – as a bridgehead for extending its regional influence.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 573599.ece

 

[Robert]

I don't think any of us want to see Russia setting up miltary bases all over the planet and arming countries who don't get on with the US.

Well, well, well:

Moscow is expected to propose a revival of its Cold War era naval base at the Syrian port of Tartus on the Mediterranean, with some Russian reports even saying Moscow is already deepening it to accommodate a fleet of war ships. Russia may have similar ambitions for the port of Latakia, using Syria – which is in need of a powerful global backer – as a bridgehead for extending its regional influence.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 573599.ece

 

[Robert]

I don't think any of us want to see Russia setting up miltary bases all over the planet and arming countries who don't get on with the US.

Well, well, well:

Moscow is expected to propose a revival of its Cold War era naval base at the Syrian port of Tartus on the Mediterranean, with some Russian reports even saying Moscow is already deepening it to accommodate a fleet of war ships. Russia may have similar ambitions for the port of Latakia, using Syria – which is in need of a powerful global backer – as a bridgehead for extending its regional influence.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 573599.ece

 

[Glaucus]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia and killed at least 2000 civilians. The weird thing is little in terms of evidence of this has been provided and I've heard reports from S. Ossetia where bodies in the hospitals total less then 50, and that included military personnel.

But as for who actually started it, it's hard to say with any certainty. What we do know is that there were hostilities going both ways days before Aug 8th - the day Georgia made it's big move into S. Ossetia. The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan. The S. Ossetians were evacuating to Russia for days before the major onslaught. Maybe they knew of the coming storm? Not much news came out of S. Ossetia, except what Russia wanted us to see. They didn't allow any Western reporters in (four reporters were killed by Aug 12th), and even aid workers were denied entry (I'm sure that's common in emergency humanitarian missions). Their excursions into Georgia went far beyond any "humanitarian" mission should. There are reports that some critical railroads were intentionally damaged (although railroads and pipelines leading to Russian territory miraculously survived without so much as a scratch) and that Gori was excessively looted. It doesn't much look like a humanitarian mission to me. Sounds more like an invasion, and a well planned one at that.

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo. Putin warned against giving Kosovo full independence. He wasn't kidding. NATO expansion and missile defense systems in Eastern Europe didn't help either. We shouldn't be surprised to see Russia pushing back. And this is only the first time they've pushed back with military force (excluding Chechnya) - they've pushed back before by cutting off gas supplies to Georgia/Ukraine. They've meddled in foreign elections, are suspected of a great number of assassinations inside and out of Russia and have threatened neighboring nations like Poland. Russia has been in crisis mode for some time now.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia and killed at least 2000 civilians. The weird thing is little in terms of evidence of this has been provided and I've heard reports from S. Ossetia where bodies in the hospitals total less then 50, and that included military personnel.

But as for who actually started it, it's hard to say with any certainty. What we do know is that there were hostilities going both ways days before Aug 8th - the day Georgia made it's big move into S. Ossetia. The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan. The S. Ossetians were evacuating to Russia for days before the major onslaught. Maybe they knew of the coming storm? Not much news came out of S. Ossetia, except what Russia wanted us to see. They didn't allow any Western reporters in (four reporters were killed by Aug 12th), and even aid workers were denied entry (I'm sure that's common in emergency humanitarian missions). Their excursions into Georgia went far beyond any "humanitarian" mission should. There are reports that some critical railroads were intentionally damaged (although railroads and pipelines leading to Russian territory miraculously survived without so much as a scratch) and that Gori was excessively looted. It doesn't much look like a humanitarian mission to me. Sounds more like an invasion, and a well planned one at that.

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo. Putin warned against giving Kosovo full independence. He wasn't kidding. NATO expansion and missile defense systems in Eastern Europe didn't help either. We shouldn't be surprised to see Russia pushing back. And this is only the first time they've pushed back with military force (excluding Chechnya) - they've pushed back before by cutting off gas supplies to Georgia/Ukraine. They've meddled in foreign elections, are suspected of a great number of assassinations inside and out of Russia and have threatened neighboring nations like Poland. Russia has been in crisis mode for some time now.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia and killed at least 2000 civilians. The weird thing is little in terms of evidence of this has been provided and I've heard reports from S. Ossetia where bodies in the hospitals total less then 50, and that included military personnel.

But as for who actually started it, it's hard to say with any certainty. What we do know is that there were hostilities going both ways days before Aug 8th - the day Georgia made it's big move into S. Ossetia. The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan. The S. Ossetians were evacuating to Russia for days before the major onslaught. Maybe they knew of the coming storm? Not much news came out of S. Ossetia, except what Russia wanted us to see. They didn't allow any Western reporters in (four reporters were killed by Aug 12th), and even aid workers were denied entry (I'm sure that's common in emergency humanitarian missions). Their excursions into Georgia went far beyond any "humanitarian" mission should. There are reports that some critical railroads were intentionally damaged (although railroads and pipelines leading to Russian territory miraculously survived without so much as a scratch) and that Gori was excessively looted. It doesn't much look like a humanitarian mission to me. Sounds more like an invasion, and a well planned one at that.

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo. Putin warned against giving Kosovo full independence. He wasn't kidding. NATO expansion and missile defense systems in Eastern Europe didn't help either. We shouldn't be surprised to see Russia pushing back. And this is only the first time they've pushed back with military force (excluding Chechnya) - they've pushed back before by cutting off gas supplies to Georgia/Ukraine. They've meddled in foreign elections, are suspected of a great number of assassinations inside and out of Russia and have threatened neighboring nations like Poland. Russia has been in crisis mode for some time now.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia and killed at least 2000 civilians. The weird thing is little in terms of evidence of this has been provided and I've heard reports from S. Ossetia where bodies in the hospitals total less then 50, and that included military personnel.

But as for who actually started it, it's hard to say with any certainty. What we do know is that there were hostilities going both ways days before Aug 8th - the day Georgia made it's big move into S. Ossetia. The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan. The S. Ossetians were evacuating to Russia for days before the major onslaught. Maybe they knew of the coming storm? Not much news came out of S. Ossetia, except what Russia wanted us to see. They didn't allow any Western reporters in (four reporters were killed by Aug 12th), and even aid workers were denied entry (I'm sure that's common in emergency humanitarian missions). Their excursions into Georgia went far beyond any "humanitarian" mission should. There are reports that some critical railroads were intentionally damaged (although railroads and pipelines leading to Russian territory miraculously survived without so much as a scratch) and that Gori was excessively looted. It doesn't much look like a humanitarian mission to me. Sounds more like an invasion, and a well planned one at that.

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo. Putin warned against giving Kosovo full independence. He wasn't kidding. NATO expansion and missile defense systems in Eastern Europe didn't help either. We shouldn't be surprised to see Russia pushing back. And this is only the first time they've pushed back with military force (excluding Chechnya) - they've pushed back before by cutting off gas supplies to Georgia/Ukraine. They've meddled in foreign elections, are suspected of a great number of assassinations inside and out of Russia and have threatened neighboring nations like Poland. Russia has been in crisis mode for some time now.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia and killed at least 2000 civilians. The weird thing is little in terms of evidence of this has been provided and I've heard reports from S. Ossetia where bodies in the hospitals total less then 50, and that included military personnel.

But as for who actually started it, it's hard to say with any certainty. What we do know is that there were hostilities going both ways days before Aug 8th - the day Georgia made it's big move into S. Ossetia. The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan. The S. Ossetians were evacuating to Russia for days before the major onslaught. Maybe they knew of the coming storm? Not much news came out of S. Ossetia, except what Russia wanted us to see. They didn't allow any Western reporters in (four reporters were killed by Aug 12th), and even aid workers were denied entry (I'm sure that's common in emergency humanitarian missions). Their excursions into Georgia went far beyond any "humanitarian" mission should. There are reports that some critical railroads were intentionally damaged (although railroads and pipelines leading to Russian territory miraculously survived without so much as a scratch) and that Gori was excessively looted. It doesn't much look like a humanitarian mission to me. Sounds more like an invasion, and a well planned one at that.

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo. Putin warned against giving Kosovo full independence. He wasn't kidding. NATO expansion and missile defense systems in Eastern Europe didn't help either. We shouldn't be surprised to see Russia pushing back. And this is only the first time they've pushed back with military force (excluding Chechnya) - they've pushed back before by cutting off gas supplies to Georgia/Ukraine. They've meddled in foreign elections, are suspected of a great number of assassinations inside and out of Russia and have threatened neighboring nations like Poland. Russia has been in crisis mode for some time now.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia and killed at least 2000 civilians. The weird thing is little in terms of evidence of this has been provided and I've heard reports from S. Ossetia where bodies in the hospitals total less then 50, and that included military personnel.

But as for who actually started it, it's hard to say with any certainty. What we do know is that there were hostilities going both ways days before Aug 8th - the day Georgia made it's big move into S. Ossetia. The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan. The S. Ossetians were evacuating to Russia for days before the major onslaught. Maybe they knew of the coming storm? Not much news came out of S. Ossetia, except what Russia wanted us to see. They didn't allow any Western reporters in (four reporters were killed by Aug 12th), and even aid workers were denied entry (I'm sure that's common in emergency humanitarian missions). Their excursions into Georgia went far beyond any "humanitarian" mission should. There are reports that some critical railroads were intentionally damaged (although railroads and pipelines leading to Russian territory miraculously survived without so much as a scratch) and that Gori was excessively looted. It doesn't much look like a humanitarian mission to me. Sounds more like an invasion, and a well planned one at that.

You know this first crisis in the post-cold war era is a tricky thing.

The first post-cold war crisis was Kosovo. Putin warned against giving Kosovo full independence. He wasn't kidding. NATO expansion and missile defense systems in Eastern Europe didn't help either. We shouldn't be surprised to see Russia pushing back. And this is only the first time they've pushed back with military force (excluding Chechnya) - they've pushed back before by cutting off gas supplies to Georgia/Ukraine. They've meddled in foreign elections, are suspected of a great number of assassinations inside and out of Russia and have threatened neighboring nations like Poland. Russia has been in crisis mode for some time now.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

Russia changing it's story already:

Russia scales down Georgia toll

Russia has issued new, reduced casualty figures for the Georgian conflict, with 133 civilians now listed as dead in the disputed region of South Ossetia.

They finally opened up to the Red Cross. I guess they figured the Red Cross might dispute their inflated numbers, so they offered a more believable figure... But they still call it genocide!

- Mike

 

[Robert]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.
The number of deaths is another matter. (as it almost always is in any conflict)

The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan.

I agree but the question everyone seems to be avoiding answering is the question I asked above:
How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

Georgia has admitted this but says it was provoked. I don't see how any provocation could justify this type of slaughter and it's been more or less whitewashed.

Sure they were provoked but they're still murdering scumbags.

 

[Robert]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.
The number of deaths is another matter. (as it almost always is in any conflict)

The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan.

I agree but the question everyone seems to be avoiding answering is the question I asked above:
How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

Georgia has admitted this but says it was provoked. I don't see how any provocation could justify this type of slaughter and it's been more or less whitewashed.

Sure they were provoked but they're still murdering scumbags.

 

[Robert]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.
The number of deaths is another matter. (as it almost always is in any conflict)

The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan.

I agree but the question everyone seems to be avoiding answering is the question I asked above:
How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

Georgia has admitted this but says it was provoked. I don't see how any provocation could justify this type of slaughter and it's been more or less whitewashed.

Sure they were provoked but they're still murdering scumbags.

 

[Robert]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.
The number of deaths is another matter. (as it almost always is in any conflict)

The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan.

I agree but the question everyone seems to be avoiding answering is the question I asked above:
How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

Georgia has admitted this but says it was provoked. I don't see how any provocation could justify this type of slaughter and it's been more or less whitewashed.

Sure they were provoked but they're still murdering scumbags.

 

[Robert]

There's no doubt in my mind that Russia pre-planned this well in advance. I'm sure they want something for their troubles.

Didn't Georgia bomb the area first?

Well that's up for debate. The Russians say the Georgians unloaded into S. Ossetia

And the Georgians admitted it. That particular part of the story is not up for debate.
The number of deaths is another matter. (as it almost always is in any conflict)

The question is, did Russia "encourage" the S. Ossetians to draw the Georgians in? My feeling so far is yes, that was the Russian plan.

I agree but the question everyone seems to be avoiding answering is the question I asked above:
How do you provoke someone into attacking civilian areas with rockets?

Georgia has admitted this but says it was provoked. I don't see how any provocation could justify this type of slaughter and it's been more or less whitewashed.

Sure they were provoked but they're still murdering scumbags.